Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

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Abner Picklewhite
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Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by Abner Picklewhite » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:58 pm

I am soliciting opinions about this damaged Ross rifle bolt. I am wondering if any of you think welding some meat onto this broken lug and then filing it back into shape would compromise the hardness of the bolt head. I don't know what type of heat treatment they used in 1910 but I was thinking that if a person heat sinked the head properly that a few quick little zaps would not get the rest of the head too hot. Any suggestions for heat sinking the bolt?

Thanks kindly,

AB

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hammermill
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Re: Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by hammermill » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:31 pm

in 1910 i would suspect case hardening if any at all

repair wise i would pack it in heat paste after stripping it down then build up the lug with passes tig welding ! pass, let it cool in the frig repeat, as necessary the re shape with some hand files, looks like lots of lug surface overall

but i would strip it down completely was your rifle set up in 303 brit or the 280 ross??

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Abner Picklewhite
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Re: Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by Abner Picklewhite » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:10 pm

It's a sporterized military Mk.III in .303. It's really rough but I just feel I want to fix it up and get it looking nice. Not military mind you, just a better sporter.

I agree with your fix notion though I have been warned off it. I just feel it's not going to get that hot. Howsabout MIG? Would that be too hot? That's what is available to me.

On a completely different note, I was wondering where a fellow would pose a question about loading for a Webely Mk.I. I have dies and a bullet mould on the way. Just wondering if the ammo made in the second war for later Mk.s might be a little peppy for a Mk. I.

Thanks,

AB

hammermill
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Re: Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by hammermill » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:07 pm

this is one of finense that i dont think you can do with a mig welder, ymmv. try sliding a file near to the break and see if its even hardened or not.
the other option would go to the collectors site and see if parts are available but it may be tough because that manf switched bolt designs a few times

Harold_V
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Re: Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by Harold_V » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:43 pm

Abner Picklewhite wrote:I agree with your fix notion though I have been warned off it. I just feel it's not going to get that hot. Howsabout MIG? Would that be too hot? That's what is available to me.
If you're interested in my thoughts, I highly recommend you search your soul well before doing *any* welding on a hardened object. In the case of a firearm, where chamber pressures may be as high as 50,000 psi, you may be inviting problems you'd best avoid. In almost any case, I'd avoid MIG, which is very capable of providing a weld with little or no penetration. I would suggest to you that this job screams for TIG, assuming you used an acceptable process (proper heat treat).

When you weld on an object and it remains cold, the weld freezes almost instantly. That has the potential to harden the hell out of the area adjacent to the weld, (the HAZ) assuming there's enough carbon present. Stresses can be introduced, with the resulting hardness having no shock resistance in the least. What you don't want is a bolt blowing in your face.

If you insist on welding the bolt, you'd be far better served to anneal, weld and reshape, then *properly* heat treat the bolt again. You risk doing permanent damage by heat treating with a torch, or a furnace without a controlled atmosphere. You may have reasonable success encasing the bolt in a stainless packet.

Welding on medium or high carbon steel is generally not advised because of the problems I've mentioned.

Think safety.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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Abner Picklewhite
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Re: Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by Abner Picklewhite » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:50 pm

Harold, I am going to weigh your 8 1/2 thousand posts against my 4 and defer to your knowledge. I will look for a surplus bolt head for this rifle. I would dearly love to have a TIG welder but for the tiny amount of welding I do, It's not worth it. Frankly, I really like gas welding as it's quiet, extremely controllable and cheap but that's another story.

Thanks to both for your opinions.

AB

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Re: Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by Harold_V » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:00 am

Aside from the resulting oxidation, gas welding may just be the best choice, next to TIG (I'm assuming you're a capable gas weldor). If you're hell bent on giving it a go, you may be able to protect the bolt with some type of covering while you're doing the welding. Truth be told, you're far better off getting the bolt too hot than you are in trying to keep it cold. Too hot will anneal it entirely, while keeping it cold may prove to be the very reason it would fail when fired. The HAZ can be very troublesome.

There's approved processes for welding 4140, but preheat and post heat treatment is critical. If you used a similar process, you may achieve your goal.

I agree with a replacement bolt if you can acquire one. The few bucks it might cost is cheap insurance against a failure that is most likely to be deadly.

If George happens by the forum in the near future, he is an expert gunsmith (I am not a gunsmith, nor do I claim to know guns well. I'm speaking from the perspective of a guy that has worked in the shop for years and has a basic understanding of heat treat and metals). He may have a different view.

Harold
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steamin10
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Re: Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by steamin10 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:14 am

Um, I am not a Gunsmith, but sort of a Gunkey, and I will offer my opinion.

Dont fixit. The Xfactor of getting a detail wrong and having a failure, is too extreme for my gut feelings. I would think there are used and surplus parts available somewhere in the world that would be a much safer bet. I hold the question of the original failure, as being a mark of a warning in the least, although we dont know it is from firing, it raises my eyebrow on durability anyway.

An excuse that ' I wont fire it much anyway' is a trap. Leaving a piece that is substandard leaves the door open for failures. Dont do it. IMHO Find a replacement.

Thanks for lookin'.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

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Abner Picklewhite
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Re: Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by Abner Picklewhite » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:53 am

Agreed,

I'm looking for a replacement at this moment. Thanks guys.

AB

hammermill
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Re: Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by hammermill » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:51 am

numrich arms lists a bolthead part number 105290 in the on line catalogue. for 31.95 seems like a good deal

when loading for this, resurch your ammo choices,the original rifle was built for cordite loaded rounds, there is some 303 ammo that was loaded for machine guns which allowed for a 60,000 psi chamber pressure. not sure what bolt thrust would be.

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Abner Picklewhite
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Re: Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by Abner Picklewhite » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:07 pm

Thanks for the heads up on the bolt. That is a fair price. I will look into that though I have my suspicions that Numerich will not ship to Canada. I shall find out.

AB

hammermill
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Re: Ross Rifle bolt lug weld

Post by hammermill » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:57 pm

canada is not on the list of banned , too bad you cant ship stuff in . coles price on a2 50bmg barrels is so good i quit looking at the site cause we cant import them. :cry:

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