Home shop gun rules

[endmill]

Question Can you legally work on a friend gun in you home shop? Thanks

[Dave_C]

Endmill,

Depends on how you describe "Work On" and also what your State and Local county laws say. I can and do "work" on my friends guns and I do not have an FFL. Not zoned properly so therefore it falls under "Hobby" work. Go figure.

I have lots of "Hobbies".

Dave C.

[hammermill]

never having watched a law show on tv, i will suggest you go to the atf website and look at frequently ask questions.

after that check state and local laws, as a general rule if you are being paid or start doing any volume of work,the number is small,you need the proper paperwork.

[whisperfan]

The whole issue of needing an FFL boils down to the words "engaging in business"

There are some that would argue that if you accept anything of value from the person that you are doing the work for, you are engaging in business, and therefore need an FFL.

If a three friends got together and built three AR-15's, each guy keeping the one on his lower receiver when finished - this would clearly be hobby work, no matter who's hand was on the wrench at any one time.

If you are doing work for someone you have never met, and they are giving you 75.00 to thread and re-crown the muzzle of their rifle ... then it would be hard to claim you aren't engaging in business.

Then there is the issue of keeping a firearm owned by someone else in your home - especially overnight. Add to that the issue of having someones firearm without them being present - especially in a state that requires firearms to be registered - and it gets muddy.

Lastly, consider the liability issue - if you do a trigger job on a firearm (even as a hobby for a friend) and then that friend accidentally shoots someone else - don't think they wont claim that the trigger was too light and then sue you. And you cant get liability insurance for a hobby.

So - be careful and discriminating about the work you take on

[endmill]

THANKS!!!

[steamin10]

It is mandatory for a gunsmith to log in any firearm, that stays at least over night. A daytripper need not be logged.

Most of the regs are for business attributes. If you are an occasional fixer, dont tell anybody. Essentially, every receiver, and gun frame must be serialised, and recorded. That is essentially 'the' gun. Not the barrel, screws, or fixtures.

The Feds I have dealt with are very nice to deal with, and untrustworthy, if they sense you are outside the lines. But, really, that IS their job.

In dealing with cannon, of any caliber, they fall under 'other' as in dangerous devices. This is general, and is discretionary to those that are watching. That can get you into really hairy territory with the wrong attitude by anyone.

Ya, I would stake my claim in HOBBY activities and sleep well. Just dont make 100 fancy Muzzel Compensaters, or anything like that. It changes the view.

[whisperfan]

It is mandatory for a gunsmith to log in any firearm, that stays at least over night. A daytripper need not be logged.

I have heard, in states that have no state registration that one person 'sold' another person a firearm for a buck or two. The second person did some gunsmithing on his new firearm and really improved it. Then he sold it back to the original owner a week or so later for a hundred or a hundred fifty, because it was vastly improved.
Doing something like this not only violates the spirit of the law, but it doesn't pass the smell test. If charges were brought, I believe the ATF lawyer wouldn't have to work very hard to convince a jury that you had the intent to violate or circumvent the law all along.

In dealing with cannon, of any caliber, they fall under 'other' as in dangerous devices. This is general, and is discretionary to those that are watching. That can get you into really hairy territory with the wrong attitude by anyone.

I thought that black powder muzzle loading cannons were non-firearms. I know a guy that has a 3" bore black powder muzzle loader that isn't registered as a destructive device.

Ya, I would stake my claim in HOBBY activities and sleep well. Just dont make 100 fancy Muzzel Compensaters, or anything like that. It changes the view.

Do you also need an FFL to manufacture firearms parts and accesorries like compensators? I didn't think you did. But I'm not in business - so I don't know for sure.

[steamin10]

First, a gunsmiths log is Owner Serial ID, to prevent overnight theft from being a method of illegal tranfers, and to track many things, like barrel changes. Something that passes through the door and not kept overnight, is most likely a screw, adjustment, or furnature change, that would be of little interest. The bulk of your statement is true, if it quacks, its probably a duck, and illegal if you dont have the stamp.

2nd, Cannon of black powder, or projectile firing of any size over 2" must have an ordinance mark that is specific to that barrel, and registered with BATF. It is a half truth, in that a device, hand held, or other, that is capable of firing a projectile(s) is 'other dangerous device'. In theory, that would exempt a signaling device, firing blanks. If it can be loaded with wad and shot, it is an ordinance barrel, and -capable- of firing a projectile.

A mortar is an interesting ruling. Reinactors using large bore mortars are exempt by the antique rule. In essence, the barrel is, by rule, only 2 diameters in length. The more modern (HART(?) mortar design is slender of barrel and modern of swallow tailed projectile, and NOT exempt, as a Nevada group found out. None of their units were registered at a club shoot, that drew the attention of authorities.

3rd, The making of muzzle compensators, is not illegal, making 100 for your private use, would be hard to defend against, unless all your freinds and relatives are getting one for Christmas. Even then, I would not be surprised if -they- did not believe you.

Further I say not, as I am not going to be a lawyer, nor do I wish to dispense incorrect information. Needless to say, if you are going by the law, go find what it is, not a bunch of blather, by people who claim to know, like me. Times and laws change, find out from the horses mouth, and leave the underground behind.

I love the CHUFF of a mortar in the morning.

[whisperfan]

It is a half truth, in that a device, hand held, or other, that is capable of firing a projectile(s) is 'other dangerous device'. In theory, that would exempt a signaling device, firing blanks. If it can be loaded with wad and shot, it is an ordinance barrel, and -capable- of firing a projectile.

It's funny you mention that ... I have a DefTec 37mm Gas Gun. According to the ATF it is one of two things .... the same 'gun' when used with smoke, gas, flares, or some even say 'chalk marking' bags (basically a bag with chalk-line chalk in it, often used to mark trees to be cut down by a logger) Anyway - this is a non-firearm, not even a Title 1 ... can be bought and sold without a 4473 .......
Now - take that same gas gun, load it with anything the ATF considers to be an 'anti-personnel' ammunition, and it jumps from being a non-firearm to being classified as a "Destructive Device" needing to be registered with the NFA.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/ ... g-95-3.pdf

*snip*
37/38 mm gas/flare guns possessed with cartridges containing wood pellets, rubber pellets or balls, or bean bags are classified as destructive devices for purposes of the Gun Control Act, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, and the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53.
*snip*

*snip*
ATF has previously held that devices designed for expelling tear gas or pyrotechnic signals are not weapons and are exempt from the destructive device definition. However, ammunition designed to be used against individuals is available for these 37/38 mm devices. This “anti-personnel” ammunition consists of cartridges containing wood pellets, rubber pellets or balls, and bean bags.

When a gas/flare gun is possessed with “anti-personnel” type ammunition, it clearly becomes an instrument of offensive or defensive combat and is capable of use as a weapon. Since these gas/flare guns have a bore diameter of greater than one-half inch, fire a projectile by the means of an explosive, and, when possessed with “anti-personnel” ammunition, are capable of use as weapons, the combination of the gas/flare gun and “anti-personnel” ammunition is a destructive device as defined in the GCA and NFA.
*snip*


So - what I have is classified by the ammunition I have for it! Once more crazy thing about the BATF&E!

No wonder most people have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the NFA! Especially when you start talking about Destructive Devices, or AOW's !!!

[steamin10]

Ever been shot by a teargas can, or signal flare? Doesn't sound very non-aggressive to me. Like the IRS, ask three agents a sticky question,you will likely get 3 diferent answers.

Good luck.

[whisperfan]

Ever been shot by a teargas can, or signal flare? Doesn't sound very non-aggressive to me. Like the IRS, ask three agents a sticky question,you will likely get 3 diferent answers.

Good luck.

Hopefully I don't have to ask any agents anything .... since they have already ruled on it, and it's in black and white!

To endmill - sorry for hijacking your thread ---- no offense intended!

[woodsy]

Just to be clear – in the ATF’s eyes, a private individual can manufacture any number of compensators, sights, triggers, scope mounts, stocks, etc., etc, and offer it for sale without any license from them. Of course, you have State and local business licenses to consider but the ATF isn’t involved in these. Want to make barrels without having an FFL? Go ahead. Come out with a super new bolt design and want to put it on the market? Have at it! Got a new whiz-bang trigger system figured out? Get it to market already will you?! As long as the part (or assembly) does not fit the ATF’s definition of a “firearm” then no license is required to manufacture for sale.

Want to make frames or receivers for sale without having an FFL? Sufficient application of brakes required! You can’t do it without a manufacturer’s license from the ATF. If you look at their definitions of what is the “firearm” you will see that it is mostly the frame, receiver, right side plate etc. (depending on what you’re attempting to manufacture). These are what you cannot manufacture for sale without the proper licensing from the ATF.

However, want to make a frame, receiver, right side plate for your own build without getting licensed? This you can do as long as you’re not prohibited from owning the final product and you’re not making it to sell. And, while, we’re at it, the receiver DOES NOT need to be marked with your name and address nor does it require a serial number. This comes up quite a bit while talking about home-builds and the folks that say that you need to do this are incorrect. ATF only suggests that you mark it with a serial number. It is not required.

To the question at hand – if your buddy brings a gun over for you to work on you can do this IF you’re not making any money on the deal. If he pays for the parts and you do the work for free there is no issue. If he leaves it overnight I believe that you’re still okay but I’m not 100% clear on this.

Yes, I know, I’m new here. Used to be an FFL holder. Thinking about getting back into it on the gunsmith side but need to expand the shop a bit more.


Edit by Jack.

Readers of this thread including all posts here, with questions, should contact the ATF and any other authorities possibly involved in these maters , both federal and local, to verify the accuracy of statements posted here.