Pacrat,
Nice job on the photos! I was not aware of the "float" until contact. That does makes sense. I bet if you used it with well turned necks it would turn out near perfect concentricity of the case neck and case body.
Must work if you like it, huh. Think I will order one and play with it. My design may be to complex for price point but would produce perfect concentricity if it could be made.
Thanks for helping me understand some of the issues. I appreciate it!
Dave C.
Case Neck Tuning Device
Re: Case Neck Tuning Device
I learn something new every day! Problem is I forget two.
Re: Case Neck Tuning Device
Well that is what happens when you don't have one in hand to look at. I was trying to see how it worked from Lee's instruction page.
Next best thing to having one in hand is clear pics. Especially with my meager verbal discription powers.
First time I bought and tried this system. I had one of those darned aggravating "so simple, why didn't I think of it moments."
Icing on the cake is that Lee's Deluxe die set which includes the collet die is about the same price or cheaper than most other makers standard friction die set.
Re: Case Neck Tuning Device
Good News This Morning:
I got a reply from RCBS (Alliant Techsystems). They sent me the forms to sign for an outside invention. No idea if it will ever make production but at least we are talking design and intent at this point.
Someone said "just because we have always done it that way does not mean there isn't a better way to do it".
Time will tell on this one.
Dave C.
I got a reply from RCBS (Alliant Techsystems). They sent me the forms to sign for an outside invention. No idea if it will ever make production but at least we are talking design and intent at this point.
Someone said "just because we have always done it that way does not mean there isn't a better way to do it".
Time will tell on this one.
Dave C.
I learn something new every day! Problem is I forget two.
Re: Case Neck Tuning Device
Amen to that Dude.Someone said "just because we have always done it that way does not mean there isn't a better way to do it".
Re: Case Neck Tuning Device
Poking through the posts .
Ordinarily I don't give up loading secrets but just this once .
Turn the necks with the case neck seated on a mandrel in a lathe . Let the case and mandrel rotate as one .
More uniform than rotating the mandrel inside of the neck while cutting .
( I shoot a 6.5 wssm , the loaded rounds have 0.001" clearance in the exterior neck diameter to the chamber .
I do not recommend this to anyone .
This and other secrets enable the case to snap back to size and maintain a consistent neck tension .
I resize my match cases after three firings with minimal brass flow up the neck .
"Don't try this at home " . )
Steve S
Ordinarily I don't give up loading secrets but just this once .
Turn the necks with the case neck seated on a mandrel in a lathe . Let the case and mandrel rotate as one .
More uniform than rotating the mandrel inside of the neck while cutting .
( I shoot a 6.5 wssm , the loaded rounds have 0.001" clearance in the exterior neck diameter to the chamber .
I do not recommend this to anyone .
This and other secrets enable the case to snap back to size and maintain a consistent neck tension .
I resize my match cases after three firings with minimal brass flow up the neck .
"Don't try this at home " . )
Steve S
Re: Case Neck Tuning Device
Like Steve, what I do with a precision custom machined chamber is a hell of a lot different than what you could do with any standard factory chamber. I'm shooting highly compressed loads in my PPC and the rifeling forces the bullet back into the case as the bolt is closed. I'd be scared to fire these rounds in any factory gun chambered for the 6mm ppc. And I'm certainly not trying to run this off topic, but there's more than a few issues that are related that won't help you get anywhere close to that .001 runout with assembled rounds. Varying case wall thickness would be just one of them. And I realize just how many arguments can be made due to different methods, understanding, or even equipment. Plus the standard male and female die threads are anything but precision.
A proper competition chamber certainly won't allow you to use any factory loaded ammunition, so your obviously forced to start with empty brass. I figure it's critical enough that brand new single lot number brass is very important. So for those tight chambers, I re size the brass using the dies my gunsmith made with the same reamer the chamber was cut with. As the brass comes out of the die, the expander forces the neck outwards to an certain size across the total number of cases your processing, and the exact neck wall thickness the factory swaging dies left.There will be some size differences even with same lot number brass. It's at this point I trim to length and deburr both the inside and outside of the neck, that gives you a fixed reference surface to set the cutting depth on the case neck turning tool. And with my 6 mm ppc, I turn the necks .001 undersize from the chambers reamer dimensions. But you have to be very careful to not cut into the case shoulder, if you start overworking your brass at all and then have a case neck break off and remain in the chamber it's going to really spoil your day. While setting the case neck tool, I smoke the neck and shoulder area with a candle and slowly creep up on the adjustment until the cutting tool just scratches the carbon off where the neck and shoulder join. It's worthwhile to use magnification if you can while setting that adjustment. It's not a place to cut corners in my opinion.
With the case length set and the necks cut to size, I then go back in and remove the internal flash hole burr and center drill that flash hole. Even with the same lot number, I've found size differences in the flash holes using numbered drill bits as gauges. So the flash hole de burring also helps to bring all the flash holes to the same size. I'll then use the proper tool to re cut the primer pockets so there all to the exact same depth, flat and square to the case head.
With all this case work done your brass should be quite close to being uniform from case to case. The case wall thickness can and will vary a bit though, and it's not impossible to get differences in total head thickness. You could use a ball shaped tool with the ball offset and a dial indicator to check your case wall thickness and toss out any that varied from the average. Probably I'd then weigh each case since that would tell me what cases had thicker case heads internally. You could I guess check then with a home built gauge or an extended rod that worked with a dial indicator.
And buying good quality hand swaged bullets can only help if everything else is perfect. But it's not exactly easy to get .001 runout with any factory chamber. Those standard die threads will fight you at every step too.
One more tip about those very crude 7/8ths x 16 die threads. I'm very sure they only use them today because so much of the reloading equipment uses it. Run your die down into the presses threads until the locking ring is just about to touch, then try tilting the die, you'll see it can wobble around like a drunken sailor. So when setting up your dies to YOUR press, you need a way to align each die so there set for the correct height and aligned with the ram and shell holder. I've had really good luck doing the following if your not wanting to do full length resizing.
lube your first once fired case, then use a candle and smoke the case neck and at least part of the shoulder. set that in the shell holder, screw your sizing die down into the presses female threads and leave it loose without using the locking ring. Run the press ram to the top of it's stroke then back to the bottom, check the carbon on the case neck to see if it's been touched, continue screwing the die down until you start feeling the die beginning to squeeze the case, once the carbon on the neck is pushed down and it just barely kisses the case shoulder, that's the correct depth for your die, press, and chamber. Now without disturbing that setting, use another once fired case and run it up into the die until it's at the top of the rams stroke, now hold everything in that position, this aligns the die to the shell holder because the case is helping to force the die into the proper vertical alignment. Now run your locking ring down till it touches the top of the press, Tighten the locking bolt.Now you can lower the press ram and your die will be as well aligned as you can expect. Due to some slight pressures, you might find you can't unscrew that die by hand the first time, sometimes a rag protecting the die and a pipe wrench is needed to just break the tension between the die and the top of the presses female thread. You then just screw the die in and out after that. With the die aligned, you need to align the expander ball and primer pin with the die, run that case into the die, screw the expander down while running the ram up and down, you should be able to feel when the tension comes off the case from being squeezed in the die and that's when the expander should be just starting to be pulled through the case neck, once it's partially within the case neck and your holding a slight upwards tension on the ram handle, you can then set the lock for the expander and de capping pin assembly. Your seating die also needs this alignment step too.
Other than the custom bullets and neck wall turning, I do pretty well all of the above even for reloading hunting rounds. Any screw ups should be mine and not the fault of the gun or ammunition IMO. But it's also been over 10 years since I last reloaded any ammunition, so I could be a bit behind on what the latest equipment is today. I do think I've noticed the largest difference in accuracy with standard chambers just from de burring and re drilling the flash holes along with re cutting the primer pockets.
Pete
A proper competition chamber certainly won't allow you to use any factory loaded ammunition, so your obviously forced to start with empty brass. I figure it's critical enough that brand new single lot number brass is very important. So for those tight chambers, I re size the brass using the dies my gunsmith made with the same reamer the chamber was cut with. As the brass comes out of the die, the expander forces the neck outwards to an certain size across the total number of cases your processing, and the exact neck wall thickness the factory swaging dies left.There will be some size differences even with same lot number brass. It's at this point I trim to length and deburr both the inside and outside of the neck, that gives you a fixed reference surface to set the cutting depth on the case neck turning tool. And with my 6 mm ppc, I turn the necks .001 undersize from the chambers reamer dimensions. But you have to be very careful to not cut into the case shoulder, if you start overworking your brass at all and then have a case neck break off and remain in the chamber it's going to really spoil your day. While setting the case neck tool, I smoke the neck and shoulder area with a candle and slowly creep up on the adjustment until the cutting tool just scratches the carbon off where the neck and shoulder join. It's worthwhile to use magnification if you can while setting that adjustment. It's not a place to cut corners in my opinion.
With the case length set and the necks cut to size, I then go back in and remove the internal flash hole burr and center drill that flash hole. Even with the same lot number, I've found size differences in the flash holes using numbered drill bits as gauges. So the flash hole de burring also helps to bring all the flash holes to the same size. I'll then use the proper tool to re cut the primer pockets so there all to the exact same depth, flat and square to the case head.
With all this case work done your brass should be quite close to being uniform from case to case. The case wall thickness can and will vary a bit though, and it's not impossible to get differences in total head thickness. You could use a ball shaped tool with the ball offset and a dial indicator to check your case wall thickness and toss out any that varied from the average. Probably I'd then weigh each case since that would tell me what cases had thicker case heads internally. You could I guess check then with a home built gauge or an extended rod that worked with a dial indicator.
And buying good quality hand swaged bullets can only help if everything else is perfect. But it's not exactly easy to get .001 runout with any factory chamber. Those standard die threads will fight you at every step too.
One more tip about those very crude 7/8ths x 16 die threads. I'm very sure they only use them today because so much of the reloading equipment uses it. Run your die down into the presses threads until the locking ring is just about to touch, then try tilting the die, you'll see it can wobble around like a drunken sailor. So when setting up your dies to YOUR press, you need a way to align each die so there set for the correct height and aligned with the ram and shell holder. I've had really good luck doing the following if your not wanting to do full length resizing.
lube your first once fired case, then use a candle and smoke the case neck and at least part of the shoulder. set that in the shell holder, screw your sizing die down into the presses female threads and leave it loose without using the locking ring. Run the press ram to the top of it's stroke then back to the bottom, check the carbon on the case neck to see if it's been touched, continue screwing the die down until you start feeling the die beginning to squeeze the case, once the carbon on the neck is pushed down and it just barely kisses the case shoulder, that's the correct depth for your die, press, and chamber. Now without disturbing that setting, use another once fired case and run it up into the die until it's at the top of the rams stroke, now hold everything in that position, this aligns the die to the shell holder because the case is helping to force the die into the proper vertical alignment. Now run your locking ring down till it touches the top of the press, Tighten the locking bolt.Now you can lower the press ram and your die will be as well aligned as you can expect. Due to some slight pressures, you might find you can't unscrew that die by hand the first time, sometimes a rag protecting the die and a pipe wrench is needed to just break the tension between the die and the top of the presses female thread. You then just screw the die in and out after that. With the die aligned, you need to align the expander ball and primer pin with the die, run that case into the die, screw the expander down while running the ram up and down, you should be able to feel when the tension comes off the case from being squeezed in the die and that's when the expander should be just starting to be pulled through the case neck, once it's partially within the case neck and your holding a slight upwards tension on the ram handle, you can then set the lock for the expander and de capping pin assembly. Your seating die also needs this alignment step too.
Other than the custom bullets and neck wall turning, I do pretty well all of the above even for reloading hunting rounds. Any screw ups should be mine and not the fault of the gun or ammunition IMO. But it's also been over 10 years since I last reloaded any ammunition, so I could be a bit behind on what the latest equipment is today. I do think I've noticed the largest difference in accuracy with standard chambers just from de burring and re drilling the flash holes along with re cutting the primer pockets.
Pete