Small brass rod welding ??????

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Mini bike
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Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by Mini bike »

Hello All,
Here is what I'm trying to do. I did this frame with solder. The brass rod is about an 1/8" or so...don't remember right now. A real pain to solder !! My buddy gave me a home MAPP gas kit(small bottle and an air bottle, torch tip and some rods). I have never used a torch before !!! So I have a few questions if you don't mind? I want to weld or braze the brass rod together to makes these kind of mini bike frames for little engines and the rest on my lathe. This was the first one I made. The next one and future ones will be a little snaller. A six inch rule in picture. I am hoping this is the right place to ask all this !!??!!
What do I need first off for my eyes? I wear glasses.
Can I use MAPP gas in my basement ?
What type flux and filler would I use? I don't want to melt the rod while attaching the pieces together.
Thanx for helping !!!!!!


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hammermill
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Re: Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by hammermill »

fine work on soft soldering.

the mapp gas with the little pony /propane bottles are fine but will quickly prove expensive and you will want to step up to perhaps propane/oxygen or acetylene/oxygen .
there is a set of jewelers torches that all fine detail work when hard and soft soldering.

here is a example
http://www.google.com/products/catalog? ... IEBEPMCMAE

look at the cost of bottles and refills before deciding to buy. getting a larger common size will save a lot of cash over have a od ball that has to be sent in and refilled of just changing them out at the store.

a hint to keep solder away from where you don't want is coat that area with chalk
Mini bike
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Re: Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by Mini bike »

Thank you for the reply. The chalk tip should be a big help !!

What about the fumes from either type of welding...propane or mapp...could I use them in my basement ? Don't really want to go outside in freezing weather !!
Are the # 5 lens good for torch welding or do I need something stronger ?
Thanx again
hammermill
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Re: Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by hammermill »

yes you want ventalation a samll blower hooked to dryer duct can work

what your concerned about is heavey metals like cadium,lead etc and stuff from the fluxes
that all are not good for the body and central nervious system.

what ever you do DO NOT WASH PARTS WITH BREAK CLEANERS WHEN HOT!!!!!!

use hot water, soaps etc.

you can buy several differient safety glases in various shades. also make sure your regular glasses have a anti uv coating on them my own preferance is a face shield that flips down.
Mini bike
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Re: Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by Mini bike »

Thank you again for the great info !!
dly31
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Re: Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by dly31 »

My choice for this would be hard (silver) soldering such as is used to connect air conditioning lines and other copper, brass, bronze, and steel parts. There are some soft solders which contain a small amount of silver and are thus called 'silver solders', but they are pretty much like the common soft solders. Hard soldering would be much stronger than soft soldering and although it takes a torch it can be done at temperatures that will not melt your brass rod. Like a lot of things, it takes practice to do a good job with it. Lots of information on the Web.
Don Young
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Harold_V
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Re: Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by Harold_V »

dly31 wrote:My choice for this would be hard (silver) soldering such as is used to connect air conditioning lines and other copper, brass, bronze, and steel parts. There are some soft solders which contain a small amount of silver and are thus called 'silver solders', but they are pretty much like the common soft solders. Hard soldering would be much stronger than soft soldering and although it takes a torch it can be done at temperatures that will not melt your brass rod. Like a lot of things, it takes practice to do a good job with it. Lots of information on the Web.
The one problem with hard soldering will be the annealing of the brass wire, rendering it pretty flimsy. That may not be a good choice. The use of a silver bearing solder may be required, but I'd choose one that has a higher percentage of silver were the project mine. I'd recommend the use of Stay-Brite #8 (5-6% silver)---a tin/silver solder that has considerably more strength than common solder, and flows beautifully. It's a Harris product, likely found at most welding supply stores.

No, I'm not affiliated with Harris in any way. Just a satisfied customer.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
Mini bike
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Re: Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by Mini bike »

Harold_V wrote:
dly31 wrote:My choice for this would be hard (silver) soldering such as is used to connect air conditioning lines and other copper, brass, bronze, and steel parts. There are some soft solders which contain a small amount of silver and are thus called 'silver solders', but they are pretty much like the common soft solders. Hard soldering would be much stronger than soft soldering and although it takes a torch it can be done at temperatures that will not melt your brass rod. Like a lot of things, it takes practice to do a good job with it. Lots of information on the Web.
The one problem with hard soldering will be the annealing of the brass wire, rendering it pretty flimsy. That may not be a good choice. The use of a silver bearing solder may be required, but I'd choose one that has a higher percentage of silver were the project mine. I'd recommend the use of Stay-Brite #8 (5-6% silver)---a tin/silver solder that has considerably more strength than common solder, and flows beautifully. It's a Harris product, likely found at most welding supply stores.

No, I'm not affiliated with Harris in any way. Just a satisfied customer.

Harold
Thank you for the info...What type flux works best for this type of solder? (liquid or paste) I have seen a couple tips for keeping the solder where you want it...chalkand pencil...is there something that's better than these two? Easier to localize at the joint?
Thanx again for all the replies !!
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Harold_V
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Re: Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by Harold_V »

Mini bike wrote:...What type flux works best for this type of solder? (liquid or paste)
My experience came with the construction of a series of manifolds for a hydronic heating system. I used a paste flux procured from a plumbing supply house. They sell two types, one of which is water soluble. That was the one I preferred, for obvious reasons. Both appear to work well, however.
I have seen a couple tips for keeping the solder where you want it...chalkand pencil...is there something that's better than these two? Easier to localize at the joint?
That wasn't a concern for me, so I controlled deposition strictly by chance. Sorry, I don't have anything to offer.

Harold
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refinery mike
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Re: Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by refinery mike »

If i were soft soldering the brass i would not go with map but simply use a good solder gun (electric) it would handle that size wire easily. and go with paste not liquid flux. The only liquid flux i have seen for soft solder is acid base and for steel not brass. And if you are using safe silver bearing tin solder it is safe enough to solder in your basement. Also you can hammer shape the tip to your solder gun until it fits the shape you want to solder with.
Now if you are interested in going all out for the best results I would suggest you go to a jewelry making company. A tiny torch, and they sell silver solder in a variety of temperatures. You start out soldering the main parts together with the highest melting point solder. then you put in other parts with the medium solder. and last you put in other small parts with the lowest melting point solders. That way the thing doesn't fall apart accidentaly from heat of welding the second parts on. Silver soldering in your basement should have ventalation of some sort.
I would also suggest you go to a bicycle frame making site and check out how they use jigs and frames to hold the parts together while they braze them. It must be murder to get all those parts lined up to make you bikes.
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steamin10
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Re: Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by steamin10 »

I have taken to using drainage hose on my shop vac, to blow dust from the working areas outside. It is a bit cumbersome, but I no longer take the dust from the floor and put it on the cabinets either.

Along that same line one of those little 8 inch window fans can be broken down to fit in a plywood box and use dryer hose to vent a welding/smokey /work area outside, and be taken down when not needed. I can envision a small hood and a computer pancake fan doing the same thing with some sump pump hose, out of the work area, out a window. All portable, all easy, all easy on the wallet. Much eaasier than getting cadmium or other metals in your aging system.

Think about it. TTFN
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
Mini bike
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Re: Small brass rod welding ??????

Post by Mini bike »

Thanx again for responses. It was a pain keeping the parts alligned. I used a plywood board and put brads in place to hold in place a real chore. The reason I was thinking about the brazing compared to solder is it soo long to heat up enough to melt in the joint., thus having the parts move around a little. I will have to some sort of exhaust system for my little basement shop.
Will look into all aspects of this.
Thank you all again !!
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