D&K 35 Ton? Press brake--Help Identifying Mod./Info.

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Wanna-Be
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Location: Brady, WA

D&K 35 Ton? Press brake--Help Identifying Mod./Info.

Post by Wanna-Be » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:44 pm

I was just cruising CL looking for some new Old equipment for my shop and came acrossed this machine. Looks like a good deal and just came from a medium size sheetmetal fab shop that was 'bought' out by the "Big Guy"!

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/tls/3673055989.html

The seller isn't sure of the Ton rating but just guessed. Knew the company and that it was operational when he purchase all the machine equipment. The dies went to the new company owners out of state shop.

The label plates are missing or illegable but the motors on the other equipment were wired 440v 3ph. If this is not a dual voltage motor, it isn't worth my trip to look any further, since changing motors would cost over 20% of the asking price. If I do go to look it over, I know that a dual voltage 3ph will have 9 connection, while a single voltage will have only 3 connections. So, even if the price were reduced enough to cover the cost of a replacement motor, I would need to know tha HP and RPM. There is no longer any power available to power it up and check RPM so I would really like to know the possible model number so I could look it up.
3L53J93Hd5Gc5K95Hdd3a68c0d3e9d6881510.jpg
3G63Fd3H95Nb5G55Kcd3af32ffbad0fee1eaa.jpg
If this machine looks familiar, then I would appreciate any info you might have.

Thanks,
Steve
Jet vert Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24X60 LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, S/B Shaper,B&S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Verson 22.5T Press Brake, Enco 12" hrz. saw, McEnglevan foundry furnace, Rockwell 14X42 lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill,DoAll 16-2 Vrt. bandsaw,Canedy-Otto drill press,Buffalo Iron Worker

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steamin10
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Re: D&K 35 Ton? Press brake--Help Identifying Mod./Info.

Post by steamin10 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:24 am

I have seen these small press brakes, and would give my eye teeth for one that was operational. They give a lot better sharper corner bend up to 16-14 Ga..I assume it is 8ft. Small shops run these on rotophase verters, but the cam machine runs well, and can use a bigger flywheel setup. such an energy stroage unit is usually hung from the motor, or secondary shaft if it has one, to gain energy to complete the stroke on heavy bends.

This machine depends on its gear drive, and that is the most critical part. They can run with worn gears, but are noisy.

Dies of many sorts, can be had on Ebay and other sites, you can insert shorter dies from shorter beds if you have smaller work. Most dies are pretty much universal, and industry standard, or can be converted by grinding the mounting slot tang, to size.

Some years ago, I ran a press shop with 17 machines and 5 operators. We were in the bolt and specialty bent rod prducts, so we did not have any work for our small press brake. Only ears, tabs, and brackets, mostly farmed out.

I waited for someone else to comment, but not to be so I think.

Machines like this one build a lot of toolbox type stuff out of lighter materials. The world has moved on to automated, shear/forming lines that put this machine out to pasture. Any flat work fab shop would be tickled to have one of these running, but consider the working room (real estate $) it soaks up for occasional use.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

Wanna-Be
Posts: 461
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am
Location: Brady, WA

Re: D&K 35 Ton? Press brake--Help Identifying Mod./Info.

Post by Wanna-Be » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:46 am

Thanks dave,
Your thoughts on and experience on this machine seem to compare with my own.
I did some Google searching for comparisions on this machine to verify the model and capacity and found 2 machines that confirmed it to be a 35 ton, one had a 5HP 1725RPM 240 3ph, the other seemed identical but only had a 2 1/2HP motor (no info on rpm,voltage, etc..) The latter could have been one with the flywheel arrangement you mentioned.

This machine is only about 140 miles away so I might take a drive later this week to check it out for sure. I wanted to verify if the motor is dual voltage 3ph. Since the motor label plate is not readable, I could determine this by looking in the motor connection box and count the winding connections. Should be 9 for a dual voltage. From the pictures I does look like a 5Hp but that isn't a problem for my rotary converter.

I would really like to add this machine to my shop/museum and think I could make room for it, however, for budget reason I would have to get the price down to about half the asking. I don't think that will happen since the seller, having purchase the lot of machines from this business, has already sold just about everything and didn't seem to eager to negotiate. I'll feel him out later, if it is still available. If not, no big deal, and someone else got a nice machine for a reasonable price. (Just as long as it doesn't go to scrap. That brakes my heart!)

Steve
Jet vert Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24X60 LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, S/B Shaper,B&S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Verson 22.5T Press Brake, Enco 12" hrz. saw, McEnglevan foundry furnace, Rockwell 14X42 lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill,DoAll 16-2 Vrt. bandsaw,Canedy-Otto drill press,Buffalo Iron Worker

Wanna-Be
Posts: 461
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am
Location: Brady, WA

Re: D&K 35 Ton? Press brake--Now looking at a 55 ton D&K

Post by Wanna-Be » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:50 pm

Hi, again.
As it turns out I took a bit to long to consider this 35 ton D&K press brake and it was gone the next time I checked.

However, I just found a slightly larger and younger (Ah! 1985, is young to me). D&K Hydraulic 55 ton, Model 502SP. Has a fairly complete AutoGauge CNC1000. This CNC automatic back gauge stuff looks much newer.

It is at a Goverment auction and is partially disassembled. Some might call it a "Basket Case". I call it a "Fixer Upper". I'm hoping the competition sees it as a Basket Case which might keep the bidding down. There were two tubs of parts that were sealed up but appeared to have the hydraulic cylinders, etc.. The pump was still mounted and complete. The only major thing that I saw that was missing was the torsion shaft that runs across the top and being linked to either side, to equalizes pressure across the upper die board. All the connecting linkage was there, so I suspect this bar got twisted/broke or was just removed and lost when the cylinders were removed.

No history or manuals but I have looked at a couple similar and these mechanical repairs or making of replacement parts would be within my shop capabilities.

I sent a request for a parts break down from the manufactorer and hope this might help clearify what might be missing or broken. Or what is reasonably available.

Sure would be a nice addition/overkill for my shop.

Well I hope I can make this one happen!

Steve
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Jet vert Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24X60 LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, S/B Shaper,B&S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Verson 22.5T Press Brake, Enco 12" hrz. saw, McEnglevan foundry furnace, Rockwell 14X42 lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill,DoAll 16-2 Vrt. bandsaw,Canedy-Otto drill press,Buffalo Iron Worker

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steamin10
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Re: D&K 35 Ton? Press brake--Help Identifying Mod./Info.

Post by steamin10 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:27 pm

Usually there is a key to why the machine is being given up, besides the low use and high real estate cost. If the balance shaft was broken, and is no longer with the machine, that may be the very Gremlin that forced the decision. This kind of thing is my bread and butter. What can happen is you will pay about scrap price for the machine, and the parts to put it in service may cost you as much or more. That balance shaft if a rack and gear, ( common on small machines) will eat through a thousand dollars fairly quickly getting the heavy bar stock, cutting the keys and fitting out two pinions for the rack that keeps the ram from tilting off level, regardless of where the bend is being pressed. and full 8 foot dies for diferent bends run into some money too, so you can have a lot invested before the first bend.

Much like fitting out that bargain lathe, add a 4 jaw, maybe a larger or smaller chuck, a bed rest, tool post, and a handfull of holders, not to menation a drawer full of cutter stock, and dont forget a good chuck for the tailstock.. and .... you can see the goodies pile up before you focus on what you really wanted it for. What was it anyway?

Good luck, and make it pay you.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

Wanna-Be
Posts: 461
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am
Location: Brady, WA

D&K 55 ton, 502SP info

Post by Wanna-Be » Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:46 am

Thanks for the comment. I see what your saying and can argee about the cost of parts even if I make my own. However,I do tend to become obsessed with these old machines. Maybe because of their simplisity, being something I can get my head around and a challenge to my mechanical skills. Even if I don't win the auction on this, I will have gone through this mental exercise for a week, figuring out how to accomplish such a repair and it hasn't cost me a dollar.

That said, back to the "nuts & bolts" of this machines problems.
From what I see, the balance shaft is not a rack & pinion. It appears it would have been a torsion bar running across the full width of the main frame casting. There are ~3" holes in each side where it looks like bearing were mounted with holes drilled/taped for retainer flanges on the outside. This appeared to be about 10" back and 2ft above the upper die board (not sure of the term). On each end of this casing there is a heavy link attacked, about 16" long, coming up to near the plane of what would be the balance shaft. These have machined holes for link pins, ~1" dia.
I may be over simplifying this, but I visualize 10" lever/arms coming out from this ~3" shaft and being attached to these links. Thus rotating the shaft as the rams raise and lower the die board. Any tendency for the the rams to move the die out of plane would result in the balance shaft transmitting additional mechanical force to the other end link

Anyway, that is the concept I have in my mind, but until I see some details of this assembly, I am still open to comment or experiences with this type machine.

Steve
Jet vert Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24X60 LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, S/B Shaper,B&S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Verson 22.5T Press Brake, Enco 12" hrz. saw, McEnglevan foundry furnace, Rockwell 14X42 lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill,DoAll 16-2 Vrt. bandsaw,Canedy-Otto drill press,Buffalo Iron Worker

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steamin10
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Re: D&K 35 Ton? Press brake--Help Identifying Mod./Info.

Post by steamin10 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:58 am

OK, I am not familiar with that particular machine. Due to patent rights and the like, these equalizer details can drive ya bonks, as each manufacturer tried to get milage out of their setup, good or bad. I have seen links and rollers and chains, ad nauseum. The balance arm as described is simple and easy to create, if just heavy.

These things can be conquered, if you have the will to do it. The trick is to find some work to recover what is spent on your toy.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.

Wanna-Be
Posts: 461
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am
Location: Brady, WA

Re: D&K 35 Ton? Press brake--Help Identifying Mod./Info.

Post by Wanna-Be » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:22 am

steamin10 wrote: These things can be conquered, if you have the will to do it. The trick is to find some work to recover what is spent on your toy.
I agree, and if all my old "toys" would pony up, I could retire. Oh, I guess I am retired, and how is that paying?? Less than minimum wage!

Steve
Jet vert Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24X60 LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, S/B Shaper,B&S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Verson 22.5T Press Brake, Enco 12" hrz. saw, McEnglevan foundry furnace, Rockwell 14X42 lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill,DoAll 16-2 Vrt. bandsaw,Canedy-Otto drill press,Buffalo Iron Worker

Wanna-Be
Posts: 461
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:17 am
Location: Brady, WA

Re: D&K 55 Ton? Press brake--Help Identifying Mod./Info.

Post by Wanna-Be » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:47 am

Well this is Typical Modern equipment industry (US). Ask for information on a machine by model number and SN and what do I get??

"Machine is obsolete, no parts are available." "We imported the machine in the early eighties." "We cannot provide support on it."

Hell, I have a two VWs and a Ford F250 that were made in the '70 and the '80. I admit they are old but hardly "Obsolete". Still have considerable value and usefulness. Also I have been repairing and reselling Geo Metros that are almost as old and this machine and people are constantly asking for more.

No my complaint isn't with the general public, it is with these equipment manufacturers that want to place a service life of a decade or two on a machine that can/should last for a half century (or it isn't worth buying to begin with.).

Maybe I shouldn't expect parts or service support from the manufacturer but the service and repair information should be available for the duration of the actual operating life of the machine.

I will be canvasing ebay and the manual "duplicators" and see what I can find.

Sorry for the Rante but sometimes a guy just has to "Vent"

BTW: I went back and studied the data plate on the machine and the listing agent had left out a number. It is a Model 5023 SP and the SP must mean "Spain". I might have to brush up on my Spanish and try and get my information there.



Steve
Jet vert Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24X60 LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, S/B Shaper,B&S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Verson 22.5T Press Brake, Enco 12" hrz. saw, McEnglevan foundry furnace, Rockwell 14X42 lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill,DoAll 16-2 Vrt. bandsaw,Canedy-Otto drill press,Buffalo Iron Worker

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