Seeding the forum with casting Do's and Don't's

Home enthusiasts discuss their Foundry & Casting work.

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Orrin
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Re: Seeding the forum with casting Do's and Don't's

Post by Orrin » Mon Jan 06, 2003 12:15 pm

Roy, the purpose of my post was to inform. Many--perhaps even most--hobby casters are not informed about iron contamination of aluminum castings.

I am alarmed at the number of "how to" sites being put up to teach the world how to cast aluminum; and, they instruct the viewer to make a crucible out of steel pipe. People are being taught the wrong thing.

There just *may* be one person out there--maybe even more--who can afford a graphite or silicon carbide crucible. They want to get into casting and they set up a first-class foundry. They want to make castings that are the best that can come out of a home operation. But, if they are never informed, they'll never reach their potential.

My quarrel is with those who are teaching others to use steel crucibles and they are not also teaching the downside to the practice. Why are they not teaching the downside? Because they, themselves, are not informed.

Again, the purpose of my original post was to inform. I'm going to further inform by including this post from a 40-year foundryman, Jim Clary:

"In the aluminum alloy A-356.2 the highest grade of 356 ingot usually
available to foundries any iron over .12% will degrade the alloy and you
will lose mechanical properties. If your heat of melted aluminum is, say 10
pounds an increase of .016 ounce will cause the chemistry of the alloy to go
up to .13% Fe. If the iron content gets up to .25% an increase of only .208
ounce in your 10 pounds of aluminum, it is considered so far out of spec
that it cannot be used for that casting. It is not possible to tell by just
looking at the aluminum or your steel pot. Good commercial foundries are so
paranoid about iron pickup they will bar any uncoated steel or iron near the
melt. Now this only matters if you are expecting good mechanical properties
like tensile strength, hardness and elongation. If these properties don't
matter, don't worry about it. But don't expect your castings to be very
strong, have good machinability or to have much elongation. The aluminum
will still melt. It will still pour and it will still fill the casting
cavity, but it will not have very good mechanical properties.

Jim Clary"

A "snip" from another of Jim's posts:

"In aluminum alloys iron is a common spoiler. I'm not
aware of any successful aluminum/iron alloys. Aluminum has a great affinity
for iron and will take it into solution whenever given the chance. It seems
that the ability of aluminum to "dissolve" iron is infinite."

Here is Dick Morris's very affordable solution to the crucible problem:

"I use a #4/0 graphite crucible from Swest (Dallas phone number is/was (214)
247-7744. 1991 price was $19.75. I have used it for about 50 melts with no
apparent deterioration. With graphite, there is no possibility of
contamination as you can get with a steel crucible. I haven't used steel,
but have read it can cause problems, and avoidable problems are the last
thing I needed."

Here is another solution:

"From: "James \(Jim\) Buchanan" <jambuch@lex.infi.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:29:20 -0500
Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Lining crucibles [was: steel crucibles and beer]

"I have been using kiln wash and find it works. Just mix with water to the
consistency of cream and paint it on. Put into furnace and dry it out and
then add your Aluminum for the melt. Coating will last for 10 to 20 melts.
At the end of the melt I let the iron crucible cool with the furnace and
find the coating is still good."

I cannot find it, now, but IIRC, but for some reason cast-iron crucibles are not so prone to cause iron contamination in aluminum.

Now, if a person knows about iron contamination and still wants to use a home-made steel crucible, that's their business. But, I get a bit of heartburn over the people who insist it is just fine and that we should allow folks to proceed in ignorance.

My 2¢

Orrin
So many projects, so little time.

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Re: Seeding the forum with casting Do's and Don't's

Post by Harold_V » Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:41 pm

Orrin,
I applaud your fine contribution to this subject, but fear both of us are trying to teach a pig to sing.

I've given a good shot to passing along to the readers the good and useful knowledge I gained by my many years in the shop, but there's that small outspoken element in almost every group that will have no part of being told anything by anyone, especially one that may just know what they're talking about.

I'm with you. I wish there was one person out there that knew as much about foundry work as I do machining, and was willing to talk to me at a fundamental level so I could learn to understand that trade. Unlike some, that think any cheat goes, I would like to know the good and proper ways to do each and every function. That way, when I find I'm having a problem, I may be qualified enough to identify and correct it. Using every dodge, melting dirty metals, altering alloys, picking up contaminations, both metal and gas, plus pouring at improper temperatures, using poor molding techniques, why would one expect any level of excellence?

I'm not content to end up with a lump of metal that somewhat resembles a casting I desire. To be totally honest, I intend to achieve a level of excellence that would allow me to make sand castings that rival investment castings. Will I achieve that level? Hard to say. One thing is for sure, though, and that is that if I use every dirty dodge known to man, avoiding good and proper procedures at every turn, my chance at success is less than good.

I thank each and every person out there that is willing to share good and proper knowledge with me. As far as sharing the dirty dodges, I can come up with them on my own and prefer to not learn everything that I should not be learning, meanwhile avoiding all the good and proper procedures that are recommended.

That is my philosophy. It has little to nothing to do with economics, for I'm living on social security, and am not known for my wealth. What I am known for is my pride in fine craftsmanship and that is not something that I am willing to negotiate.

If some readers don't mind the problems associated with iron or steel melting devices, nor the trouble they have to go to to apply and keep a wash on them, fine, but it would be a kindness to all readers if they also mentioned the down side of using that procedure. When the smoke clears on this thing, I can't see how using a piece of pipe saves any money, for it, too, is not free, and the added maintenance isn't worth the hassle of using it, not in my books, anyway.

One last word. Just because one chooses to ignore the negative qualities of iron contamination doesn't mean it isn't true. Personally, I'd avoid iron as if it was the plague, but then that's me. I'm sure some of the readers would even suggest I am the plague. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img]

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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Roy
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Re: Orrin and Harold

Post by Roy » Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:31 pm

And YES I do agree that a clay or silicone carbide or graphite crucible is better than a steel pipe, however there is more than you may want to think that just can't afford one or the proper shanks to go with it, but they have a means to fab one out of pipe, and if its coated its fine for MOST backyard casters use. There is a time for spec and a time spec don't mean squat. There certainly is nothing unsafe about using a quality made steep pile crucible as compared to a factory bought sc or clay or ceramic crucible. If someone was so intent on make first class castings comparable to a top notch foundry they would be reading the proper books as well. However if a person wants to acqwuire a library on the various subjects thats his business, but there are some wanting dirt under the fingernails and doing and are more than happy with their results. If you have to deprive yourself of something becasue you have to have it in spec when spec don't mean squat, then I feel sorry for that individual. You can read all the books yu want and attend all the schools you want and its still not as good as hands on practical experiences, no matter hw the results turn out as long as someone dones not get hurt i the process. My website points out the pros and cons. It was the way it was stated in the post as DON"T without a reason why. Were you counting on coming back with a sequal to the original post? Thats certainly no different than someone saying use a steel pipe without saying the problems that may arise. There simply is more to making a quality casting than not using a steel pipe.......No your all not all trying to teach a PIG to sing. I carry a tune very well and have been caled a lot worse than a pig in my lifetime, as I am sure we all have been., Y'all just need to get down to the majority of the folks level doing back yard casting, and not undermine them, nor blatantly tell em they can't cast squart and its going to be trash because they used a steel pipe to melt the metal in. I dare either of you to go to some of those get togethers that a lot of hobby casters take their pride and joy castings to and tell them up front, and then say that their mill, shaper, lathe etc is crap because it has some miniscule amount of iron in it. Just becasue someone has all the latest and greatest still does not make that person the king of the roost or know everything or all the ways about it. I maintain the level of my website that the majority of folks are in. Pro and Con are both spelled out in plain language. Yes, I use a sc and I also use a steel pipe when I want to. Now who wants to be the first to tell me my shaper is pityfull and won't work because I used a steel pipe crucible, scraps of unknown alloys, no pyrometer and home made green sand.....and out of date refractory, made the sand in a home made out of spec mulle using odd ball parts, welded it all together with rods that were rusty and wet, and no spec, and then threw in a bit of kitty litter in the greensand for good measure, and melted it all down with a home made burner to boot. Pretty darned crude and cheap, so evidently them castings have to be crap, right? I'll put it against any other persons castings any day of the week........its more than sufficient for what it has to do and the way it works. I don't care if they use a pyronter and a proper crucible and an inducion heated furnace......as thats no guarantee its gonnabe any better....The major manufactuers prove that theory everyday with all the pityfull products they peddle, from cars to boats to what have you.


Until I can afford an induction furnace, and all the proper accessories to go with it and buy nothing buy 356.x certified ingots, I and a whole lot of others are just goijng to have to keep filling this world with out crappy castings. Will a shed made of used telephone poles and used tin be sufficient for a foundry or am I and the others also going to have to build a building to spec for that also. I am finished on this post, and will contribute no more....on this subject, now I have to go polish up my rebars before they pour my slab tomorrow, and make sure the tie wire meets spec. I may have to redo the forms as it was only #2 pine, it should have been cabinet grade. Sure hope my soil is not too acid to have an adverse reasction with my concrete, perhaps I shuld have had a ph test done on it. And you know what, your integrity is no more than anyone elses. I know a lot of folks whose integrity is super, but they do have common sense to know when something in certain situations is just plain Overkill. I know you all went to school, probably even college, so tell me why do bumble bees fly? By the book and science to back up this theory it should be impsssible for a bumble bee to fly. Just can't happen.BUt they do fly and they fly quite well don't they, same for the users of steel pipe crucibles, it should not be but it is and the folks using them, turns out some great looking work, for what little integrity they may have becasuse they lowered their standards and did not wait until they could afford to buy first class stuff.

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Re: Orrin and Harold

Post by Harold_V » Tue Jan 07, 2003 6:56 am

Careful, Roy, the veins on your neck are standing out. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/shocked.gif"%20alt="[/img]

I'm afraid you've read into this thing a whole lot more than is being said. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/smile.gif"%20alt="[/img] No one has told you that you shouldn't use pipe, no one has told you that your castings are junk, and no one has said, or implied, that you are doing everything wrong. Mention has been made that you are ignoring recommended procedures, but I'm not sure that is a crime.

There are certain standards that have been established by the casting industry, standards that came about as a result of problems associated with pouring metals. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/cool.gif"%20alt="[/img] These standards are there to assist you in improving your quality, and in some cases are a prerequisite to pouring metals. Case in point would be for military contract fulfillment. You do remember the military, don't you? [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/confused.gif"%20alt="[/img] All the while you were busy putting your 32 years in, I was busy making things for you (well, for your boss, at least), so I understand all too well what it's like to have to comply to specifications, including mil specs. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/smile.gif"%20alt="[/img]

If you enjoy doing your projects as you do, I'm quite sure that there are many that appreciate your efforts, even admire them. Still, that shouldn't make those of us that have a different objective, wrong. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but part of my objective is to achieve excellence. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/cool.gif"%20alt="[/img] I don't recall me telling you at any time that you should aspire to the same thing, and I also don't think you should be out there campaigning for everyone to accept your level of performance, in a sense attempting to establish a different level of acceptance for the industry. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/confused.gif"%20alt="[/img]

I do not recall telling you that using a steel crucible is unsafe. I do recall saying that molten aluminum acts as a solvent for other metals and iron contamination in aluminum is not a good thing, should be avoided. Should I ever get far enough along with my project, I fully intend to use a steel ladle for handling molten metals, including iron and steel. You said it right when you alluded to the idea of covering with a wash. We agree on that. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/smile.gif"%20alt="[/img]

"and not undermine them, nor blatantly tell em they can't cast squart and its going to be trash because they used a steel pipe to melt the metal in".

That is a direct copy from your post. I'd like you to show me where anyone said that. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/confused.gif"%20alt="[/img]

"I dare either of yu to go to some of those get togethers that a lot of hobby casters take their pride and joy castings to and tell them up front, and then say that their mill, shaper, lathe etc is cerap becasue it has some iniscule amount of iron in it "

You're missing the point, and further you're putting words in our mouths, mine for sure. I've yet to read a book published by those with authority that doesn't agree with iron contamination. I stated earlier that it is a matter of the level one is comfortable with accepting. The facts dictate that iron contamination is not good for the properties of aluminum. I further stated that if you are comfortable with the inherent problems that accompany the contamination, that's fine, too. I just won't accept your demand that we (or I) see it the same way. People that are in the know don't agree with you. You're asking me to disagree with those that have made a life study of casting? [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/confused.gif"%20alt="[/img]

"Just becasue someone has all the latest and greatest still does not make that person the king of the roost or know everything or all the ways about it"

Couldn't agree with you more. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/smile.gif"%20alt="[/img] I've worked with guys that have a nice toolbox filled with tools, but they couldn't do much right. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/frown.gif"%20alt="[/img] That's not what we're talking about in this instance. You're arguing points that are well documented by the foundry industry, points you appear to choose to ignore.

"I am at the level with my webiste that the majority of foks are in. I use a sc and I also use a steel pipe when I want to.! Now who wants to be the first to tell me my shaper is pityful! l and won't work because I used a steel pipe crucible, scraps of unknown alloys, no pyrometer and hoe made sand.....and out of date refractory, made the sand in a home made out of spec muller with a bit of kitty litter thrown in for good measure, and melted it all down with a home made burner to boot. Pretty darned crude and cheap, so evidently them castings have to be crap, right? "

I don't know that any of us said that, but would your castings stand up to proper testing? Not that they need to, but that's not the point. The fact is that the inherent problems of working in that fashion yield a generally lower quality of casting. Grain of the aluminum is not as good, you are likely to have porosity, you will have lower tensile strength. You'd be hard pressed to sell the quality to a knowledgeable source, but, again, that's not what we're talking about, because that's not your objective. I've stated it time and again, if you're happy with how you do things, I have no problem with it. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/smile.gif"%20alt="[/img] I think I can go so far as to say I've been favorably impressed with some of your work. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img]

For me, my philosophy is that I don't do things less than the accepted way when I know better. Personally, I find it foolish to re-invent the wheel, especially when some very bright people went before me and documented their findings so I can avoid making the same stupid mistakes that were made by others. My time is too valuable to spend spinning my wheels. I'd like to think that when I end up with a product, it can withstand scrutiny if necessary. I rarely apologize for my work. I've not told you that you should adopt my policy.

"I'll put it against any other persons castings any day of the week........its more than sufficient for what it has to do and the way it works. I don't care if they use a pyronter and a proper crucible and an inducion heated furnace...... as thats no guarantee its gonnabe any better.... [color="brown"] The major manufactuers prove that theory everyday with all the pityfull products they peddle, from cars to boats to what have you."

[color="black"] I'm not sure how you know all that when you don't have your castings analyzed. I think it's safe to say that some of your work is better than some foundries, and some of it wouldn't be accepted. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/blush.gif"%20alt="[/img]

As for not thinking that induction heating will make things better, I think you'd be better served to learn about induction melting before making your uninformed statement. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img] As for the poor products you mention, don't discount the possibility that these same people are using all the poor techniques we're talking about. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/smile.gif"%20alt="[/img] I don't know that they are or are not, but I won't discount the possibility.

[color="brown"] "Until I can afford an induction furnace, and all the proper accessories to go with it and buy nothing buy 356.x certified ingots, I and a whole lot of others are just! goijng to have to keep filling this world with out crappy castings. Will a shed made of used telephone poles and used tin be sufficient for a foundry or am I and the others also going to have to build a building to spec for that also. I am finished on this post, and will contribute no more....on this subject, now I have to go polish up my rebars before they pour my slab tomorrow, and make sure the tie wire meets spec. I may have to redo the forms as it was only #2 pine, it should have been cabinet grade. Sure hope my soil is not too acid to have an adverse reasction with my concrete, perhaps I shuld have had a ph test done on it."

[color="black"] Your sour grapes statements in this thread serve no purpose. You've been presented with good, viable information, and no one has attacked you or your castings. The point at hand is accepted procedures and if they should or should not be used. You like to support some that are not recommended. I don't. Because you run a web site and others look up to you for knowledge, I think you do them an injustice when you pomote methods that have the potential to lead to problems.

You keep telling us that you want us to explain why we have our position. My position is supported by the foundry industry. Who supports your position? Why don't you provide some evidence that you are doing it right and accepted procedures are wrong? [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/smile.gif"%20alt="[/img] I'm open to anything so long as it's well documented. After all, I'm here to learn, not to teach. The one thing I insist on, however, is that I learn all the right things, and NONE of the wrong ones. I already know how to do stupid things. That's what I'm trying to change. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img]

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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David_Brown
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Re: -Contract Writers & Urban Legends

Post by David_Brown » Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:39 am

Most people writing today don't do original research. Go to Google, pick up a few factoids, write an article, get it published and get paid. The publishers don't pay well enough for writers to do original research, so the same misinformation keeps on floating around forever.
The same thing applies to web sites. Usually compiled from other sites via Google,with the same result.
Very difficult to get accurate information today.

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mikell
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Re: -Contract Writers & Urban Legends

Post by mikell » Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:07 pm

We have the forums so we that want to can learn from those who have been there done that for more years than the computers been around. I'm going to cast some wheels this spring and will be asking lots of questions. We just moved and my shop just got and lights but the 240 volt is not done. When thats up I'll be back.

mikell

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Re: Orrin and Harold

Post by stephen_thomas » Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:58 pm

Roy,

the "just go do it" ethic is the best way to grab someone's attention, interest and focus, and get them off their butts and doing instead of thinking about it for the next umpteen years. But I can't tell you how many times growing up and in the past I wished someone had told me the "right" way to do things, and _why_. Saves a lot of wasted time and effort, and wondering. Or it would have for me. Would i have "listened" the first time? probably not, and usually don't, i want to go see it work. But at least with all the info, I know when it is my fault, and better yet, how to do it better next time. There is no way someone is going to understand about subtle things like trace iron in an aluminum melt unless he reads it or someone tells him. I think that is enormously valuable information. I have come to respect that when Harold Vordos takes the time to write something, it is well worth my time personally to read it. The man does not waste bandwidth. Even if i do it different, or fail to heed the advice, I'm glad someone made the effort to tell me how *and* why. Seems like both of you have a lot to add. It's not religion either way. smt

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Roy
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Re: -Contract Writers & Urban Legends

Post by Roy » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:10 am

This is very true. But with the amount of forums arund, the info on the varous websites, and the books available that are creditable, it should not be much of a chore to figure out what is and what is not a valid source of info. Lots of info that may be available may be more than whats required, but the basic concepts apply. How you can deviate from those with the results you get is all up to those individuals. It would really take a fool to take just one webistes word at doing things. However if a lot of sites have images and they all basically flow in the same directions its pretty good bet that you can do it as instructed. Read the "proper" books, talk to people, and then weigh the possibilities and results from there. Just jumping headfirst with the directions of one website or one book is not a good idea.

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Rob_Black
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Ain't this what we're about?

Post by Rob_Black » Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:50 pm

Obviously, we have what are being taken as two seperate viewpoints here. Well and good. I agree with ST in that I too wish I had learned something the right way and probably saved some time and grief in the end. In seeming contradiction I'm also intrigued by ways to do it now, cheap. And as mentioned, one source probably isn't enough for good planning or comprehension of a subject.
So we lay it out and each individual make his own choices. You're not going to convert the die hard penny pincher. And there's always the perfectionist. But I believe there's a whole bunch of us who can review the various methods(foundry, machining,whatever) and apply one that makes sense for the situation. And that's where the varying views and info are valuable; if you don't know about it, you can't consider it.
Personally, I tend to agree with Harold on equipment. However, I've been thinking about casting a new benchrest stand and don't have a foundry put together. Seems the piece of pipe may be just the thing for the first attempt; if I want to do more and may sell some, I'd look at better equipment then. How much strength do I need to hold up the front end of a 7.5 lb rifle? I'd probably take the chance for the prototype.

Oh yeah, my casting do/don't: For lost wax, DO make sure all the wax is burned out of the mold. Wasn't my mold, and I didn't run the burn out kiln, but I was present and helping to pour bronze when we lit off what turned out to be a pretty impressive blow torch. Don't recommend.

Rob
[b] Some days are diamonds....[/b]

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mattking
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Re: Orrin and Harold

Post by mattking » Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:33 am

[img]/ubb/images/graemlins/mad.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/mad.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/mad.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/mad.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/mad.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/mad.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/mad.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/mad.gif"%20alt="[/img] [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/mad.gif"%20alt="[/img]

You know, someone here said "when Harold Vardos speaks, it's worth my time to read it" (or something close to that - please *do* forgive if I've misquoted something that refers to a deity).

I'm *not* a new guy here, but haven't posted much (nor on the old site) but I *am* new to casting. I'm gonna tell you what *I* have learned from Harold Vardos. I've learned that the inability for most people to properly communicate in writing, especially on the internet, is still living well.

Harold's posts have come across as some of the most high and mighty, arrogant, virtriolic, and CONDESCENDING *CRAP* I've read in a LONG, LONG time!!

Here Roy is SHOWING you what he can do(and it's DAMNED IMPRESSIVE) and Harold is blathering on about wishing to pursue excellence while not offering even a shred of usable information that isn't readily available in any number of boring texts that would put most people to sleep. Roy(and many others), on the other hand is saying "you, the average guy can get started in this without spending a bunch of money - you can then pursue more info and immerse yourself in this pursuit to any level you feel like..."

"I wish there was one person out there that knew as much about foundry work as I do machining..."

Well, holy dogballs, Batman, we're in the presence of a machining GOD! He says it himself, therefore it must be true!

Now, mind you, I'm a dumb hick programmer from south Georgia, (even worked on a peanut farm a while!), but COME ON! Let's SEE the work that PROVES you're that good and let's see you ASK for info on casting. I'll settle for this, Mr Harold (the mister is there to show every single ounce of respect that I have for someone who will pat themselves on the back like this and tear someone else down). Next time say "while the steel crucible is a viable tool for the home casting guy, it can have a few drawbacks such as...." "...these may not be a problem for you, but I just thought I'd mentioned what I've learned..."

That may come across a bit better.

Sorry to offend any of you out there, but the kind of crap I'm mentioning here is the EXACT thing that pushes a new hobbiest away and that's what we DON'T want.

~RANT OFF~

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Re: Orrin and Harold

Post by Harold_V » Sun Jan 12, 2003 3:39 pm

Hey Mattking,

I certainly can understand your position in this matter. It's a common reaction from those that approach things from a string and bubblegum perspective, lacking totally any understanding of the mechanics of doing things properly, then scratching their heads in wonder when nothing they attempt succeeds. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/smirk.gif"%20alt="[/img]

I don't have the slightest problem with your opinion of me, but I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. Case in point: I said, and you quoted me properly:

"I wish there was one person out there that knew as much about foundry work as I do machining..."

Taking the portion of my post that makes my ego look larger than it is, without quoting the rest of the statement, speaks volumes about your character: [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/frown.gif"%20alt="[/img]

"and was willing to talk to me at a fundamental level so I could learn to understand that trade."

Perhaps you have a hard time understanding what 40 years of working in a trade means, but I don't. I'll say it again, I'd like to have someone talk to me about foundry work that has the same skill levels in his trade that I have in mine. You don't like that statement? That's just going to have to be your problem, it sure as hell isn't going to be mine. I have the credentials and track record to back my statements and would gladly listen to and learn from someone my equal in the foundry field.

I have yet to find anyone that is willing to talk to me at a fundamental level so I could learn something about that trade. That was and is my point. I've played with casting on and off all my life. I've built home brew furnaces and have cast tens of thousands of ounces of precious metals. Problem with that is it's all at my hand, with no proper training, the very thing about which I speak out. I don't have need for input from those that don't know proper techniques, I already know how to do things wrong. It's the quest for excellence that I speak of that interests me. When I am able to produce it, I will show it.

If you'll go back and read my statements, I'm sure you'll find that I am favorably impressed with Roy's work, and at no time did I demean him. Read my posts again and see where I told him that I was favorably impressed with his work. We may argue back and forth, but for some strange reason, I get the idea that we get along.

I said it before and I'm saying it again. We have a responsibility of sorts to promote proper practices when passing along to others what we know. Teaching others to ignore procedures that yield good results is hardly in anyone's best interest.

Thanks for the education in manners. Next time I have any questions concerning how I should talk, I'll be certain to check with you, Emily.

Do me a favor. You don't like how I phrase my posts? DON'T READ THEM! What I am is a well trained machinist that has no education, but an ability to touch type. I try to pass along to others the good and useful information that allowed me to make a decent living at my chosen trade and gain the respect of my peers. I do the best I can with my limited social skills. Seems like you fit that description, too. The limited social skills, anyway. What is it, you don't have anything better to do with your time? Why don't you post a few things and attempt to contribute to the forum instead of sitting back being critical of those of us that do our best to help others? Maybe that way I can comment on your lack of manners and poor contributions, too! [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img]

Have a great day!

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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Dave_V
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 7:16 pm
Location: SW Lower Michigan

Why

Post by Dave_V » Sun Jan 12, 2003 4:46 pm

Gentlemen,

I have carefully read ( and saved ) this dissertation.

Because of my experiences, or lack of them, I am baffled by this exchange.

I have a difficult time expressing myself with the written word and if and when I post here it will be based on my experience.

I am a journeyman patternmaker ( retired ) and I don't have any pictures of my work ( other than retirement gifts for management and, a few, hourly employees ) that I could show. Look at Harold's pattern in another thread on turning wood on a metal lathe. I am guessing that he has hands on experience that directly relates to this forum.

I feel there is a better than even chance that these posts will be pulled. I would like to point out that there is a 'private message feature' for this type of communication. I think that this exchange is likely to polarize the forum.

I know of several people that won't post in any e-group - one, in particular, was being harassed in his private life because of conflicts on the web. A valuable resource was lost - to all.

I made a choice not to work in the field of my degree, and while attempting to share related experience in that area, I was put down by several individuals on the old forum. They don't have a clue ! I know from replies they made on future threads, after I had given advice, that they wouldn' t bother to read - anything - I had to say. Enough said.

Please continue to contribute, but also consider keeping the personality conflicts private.

Thanks,

Dave

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