Kerr Electro Melt

[Harold_V]

Bottom line is, you're better off finding a buyer for the cats than you are attempting to make a recovery. You won't realize full value in either case, and the work involved in processing is complex.

I will agreee with you on this 100% but sometimes people just enjoy trying new things just to see if they can.

I don't have an issue with that idea.

Harold your negativity on what one can do in a home based setting is aboslutly astounding.

What I find astounding is your assessment of me and my thought processing. If you knew me, you'd understand how wrong you are, but you don't. It's clear to me, as well as to at least one of the readers on this board, that you're quick to settle for results that may or may not be acceptable. I ran in to this problem when I tried (in vain) to hire help with the building project I am completing. All too many are willing to grab one's money and run, turning out less than acceptable workmanship. I'm not suggesting that that is the case with you---as I don't know you, just as you don't know me----but I'm well familiar with folks who fancy themselves as being skilled in areas in which they know little. They are not capable of making sound judgments, as they don't understand the ramifications of not having the knowledge required. Processing cats would be an excellent example of what I speak.

I find your thought process is a typical of some who concentrate solely on one portion of a printed text that... well lets just use the iron melting in a crucible for example. Your reading has indicated that iron will absorb carbon from the crucible changing the composition of the melt and that you would not melt iron in a crucible because of this. Now my question to you is how much carbon can it absorb from the crucible and at what rate.

You're reading in to my thoughts far more than I've disclosed, and you're wrong, once again. At what point did I suggest that the charge will absorb too much carbon? I didn't say that, nor did I infer that. What I did say is that the prolonged heating (typical of a furnace that is not truly capable of melting iron) changes the chemistry of the charge. That's fact, and all the fancy dancing around the issue won't change that. If that was not the case, adding ferrosilicon wouldn't be a solution.

The point I am trying to make here is that you dont need to be pin point accurate to enjoy what you are doing. Are there better ways of doing things? Of course there is, but not everyone has access to or can afford a 50kw induction furnace so we use what we have and can afford, and I doubt my neighbours would find a copula entertaining (but I sure would). But hey anytime you want to part with that furnace you just mail it right on over i would love to see it under my tree at christmas

Best have your floor reinforced. That 50 kw induction furnace weighs nearly 4 tons. It is not current technology, but a second generation machine (motor generator, not solid state). And, it requires a 400 amp 240 volt three phase service. On the positive side, it operates without emitting pollution, unlike a cupola. It also requires that one have knowledge to operate the device successfully, just as one requires knowledge to operate any device successfully. It should be noted that it can kill the operator.

You might be better served discussing things you know that relate to the basic topics of this board instead of second guessing me on matters in which you know nothing (like knowing me). I strongly advise you to do so.

Harold

[ctwo]

...it operates without emitting pollution...
Harold

most likely the energy it uses is a result of coal burning electric generators. If more people understood the Carnot cycle, they would realize that electric vehicles will not result in decreased emissions using today's utilities.

[DavidF]

It's clear to me, as well as to at least one of the readers on this board, that you're quick to settle for results that may or may not be acceptable.

Acceptable to whom? NASA? For the record I take great pride in the work that I do and the quality. If you are in question my ability then PM me your address and i will gladly send you a sample casting for you to critique. I have a couple of castings laying that I rejected due to a bit of sand wash I could send you right away, or I can pour something for you specificly. Your call.

they don't understand the ramifications of not having the knowledge required. Processing cats would be an excellent example of what I speak.

Nope dont know a thing about it but im up for reading, learning, and experimenting. Edison didnt know how to make a light bulb the first time out either. "Ramifications of not having the knowledge" Hmm sounds like there are some health issues at play? As I stated im interesting in learning the process. That being stated I would do my research before attempting.

You're reading in to my thoughts far more than I've disclosed, and you're wrong, once again. At what point did I suggest that the charge will absorb too much carbon? I didn't say that, nor did I infer that. What I did say is that the prolonged heating (typical of a furnace that is not truly capable of melting iron) changes the chemistry of the charge. That's fact, and all the fancy dancing around the issue won't change that. If that was not the case, adding ferrosilicon wouldn't be a solution.

Ok you got me there, that is not what you had origonaly stated. So you what are stating that prolonged heating changes the chemistry of the charge. So I ask you, what part of the composition changes? How fast does or how short of a time does iron need to be melted in to avoid the changes in chemestry? I am useing ferro silicone that is 75% silicone, it has about .1% carbon content to it how much do I need to add to raise the carbon content 1%?? <<---Trick question

Harold, I hope that you dont think that I am just trying to be a argumentative PITA, that is not the case i assure you. Quite honestly I look forward to hearing what you have to say even when it shows that I am wrong. I hope you are interested in continuing the discussion, if not I will just move along...

[DavidF]

This may interest you....

[redneckalbertan]

If more people understood the Carnot cycle, they would realize that electric vehicles will not result in decreased emissions using today's utilities.

Thank you! I have been beating my head against a brick wall trying to explain this to people, nice to know I'm not the only one that understands this!

[DavidF]

That's not to suggest that iron can't be melted in a silicon carbide or graphite/clay crucible---it can---but at the cost of alteration of the chemistry of the melted iron, with either vessel then contributing to the chemistry of the heat.

Carbon content of iron is controlled by silicon content. Keep that in mind when you make a choice of melting vessels. Silicon carbide is slowly absorbed by the charge, just as carbon is from graphite/clay vessels. In both cases, the chemistry of the melted iron will have changed, be it for the better, or worse.

The very reason I made mention of using silicon carbide or graphite/clay crucibles for melting. The alterations to chemistry are not limited to the medium to which it is cast, and, in fact, the sand plays a far more limited role, considering the short amount of time the metal is fluid in the mold as compared to the amount of time it is held at a fluid state in the furnace. My point was the each introduce chemical changes to the heat. Whether they're for the good or bad I can not say---my comment was simply that the use of that type of melting vessel is the basis for chemical change.

Harold, I have quoted your posts from the other topic "crucible problems" I have to admit im at a real loss here as I just dont have the understanding that you you do when it comes to the iron casting. I am trying to figure out how the crucibles can have a negative impact on the iron melt, and the prolonged heating of the melt. It is my understanding that elevated tempatures can reduce the total carbon content, but have no idea on much more beyond that.

[Harold_V]

...it operates without emitting pollution...
Harold

most likely the energy it uses is a result of coal burning electric generators. If more people understood the Carnot cycle, they would realize that electric vehicles will not result in decreased emissions using today's utilities.

I'm well aware of the pollution created by coal burning power plants, but not all burn coal or natural gas. As you likely know, we have a lot of generating capacity here in Washington State that is, for all practical purposes, pollution free (hydro-electric). I am also aware that wind farms are gaining in popularity, although at a cost to wildlife.

The point about induction furnaces operating without emissions will make sense to you *only* if you are familiar with cupola operations. If you've not seen one in operation, you don't have a clue what pollution is.

Many years ago my wife and I enjoyed a tour of Mountain States Cast Iron Pipe Co., in Utah. At that time, they were operating a 96" water cooled cupola, using shredded automobiles as feed to produce the ductile iron pipe they produced. At that time, it was made from 4" to 20" diameter, in 20' lengths, poured in water cooled spinning metal molds. The pipe, once extracted, had to be annealed, which they did in a huge furnace. A fascinating process, from melting to pouring.

The black/gray cloud coming from the cupola was a sight to behold. Needless to say, they had a bag house to clean up the air, otherwise it wouldn't have been possible for them to operate.

Harold

[Harold_V]

Harold, I have quoted your posts from the other topic "crucible problems" I have to admit im at a real loss here as I just dont have the understanding that you you do when it comes to the iron casting. I am trying to figure out how the crucibles can have a negative impact on the iron melt, and the prolonged heating of the melt. It is my understanding that elevated tempatures can reduce the total carbon content, but have no idea on much more beyond that.

It isn't just the alloy that concerns me. If you understand that iron has an affinity for carbon as well as silicon, you should address what is happening to a crucible made of silicon carbide (both silicon and carbon), with a similar concern for melting in a graphite/clay crucible. The charge will absorb some of the carbon and silica. That it harms the charge, or not, I am not discussing. Only that it changes the chemistry of the alloy. That was my point.

In regards to melting with less than sufficient heat, you hit the problem right on the head. The faster you melt iron, and the shorter time it is held at heat, the better. As you alluded, carbon content is reduced by prolonged heating. Again, that it is a good or bad thing isn't the point. That the chemistry changes is, and that can be either good or bad. It should not be dismissed as not being important.

Try to understand that I am not against the hobbyist. I feel, just as you do., that most of us can accomplish pretty much any task that we desire, but it's a fool who looks at most of them as if there are no hurdles, or that it can be easily mastered without effort. Having someone advise you of the pitfalls isn't a bad thing, so please don't try to make it one. That's a sign of a closed mind.

I refined precious metals as my soul source of income for the last ten years of my working career. It began as a hobby, and I had **no one** to discuss the process with. The only person who might have been helpful laughed at me and told me I'd never achieve my goal. To make a long story short, I ended up with the majority of his refining customers, so I got the last laugh.

How I wish I could have had someone as willing to discuss these issues as I am. Machining and foundry---not such a big deal, as there's a huge amount of information at one's disposal, but the precious metal refining industry has been, up until recent history, totally close-mouthed. What little that has been published tends to not be a "how to" publication, but instead discusses issues on a level understood only by those who understand the process. It didn't help that from 1933 until 1975, it was illegal to process gold without a federal license, which was extremely restrictive.

Harold

[Harold_V]

It's clear to me, as well as to at least one of the readers on this board, that you're quick to settle for results that may or may not be acceptable.

Acceptable to whom? NASA? For the record I take great pride in the work that I do and the quality.

You're missing the point. Safety has been discussed. If you're comfortable working as you do, go with it. That's the thing that was brought to my attention. I do not recall anyone being critical of the results you are achieving, including myself. I thought I made that clear.

If you are in question my ability then PM me your address and i will gladly send you a sample casting for you to critique. I have a couple of castings laying that I rejected due to a bit of sand wash I could send you right away, or I can pour something for you specificly. Your call.

I have no doubts that you can achieve castings that are to your liking. I hope I can say the same thing when it's my turn. I also hope I can work in a safe manner.

they don't understand the ramifications of not having the knowledge required. Processing cats would be an excellent example of what I speak.

Nope dont know a thing about it but im up for reading, learning, and experimenting. Edison didnt know how to make a light bulb the first time out either.

Edison had no one to turn to for advice. That's not true for you. A poor comparison, in my opinion. What's important is that you don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message.

"Ramifications of not having the knowledge" Hmm sounds like there are some health issues at play? As I stated im interesting in learning the process. That being stated I would do my research before attempting.

You deal with chemicals that can change your life in a major way when you process chemically. It is not to be taken lightly. Also, heating one of the platinum metals can lead to blindness, although you're not likely to encounter that one. Of chief concern is that you can become allergic to platinum by over exposure (skin contact). Once that happens, you're finished as a refiner. Platinum, unlike gold or silver, isn't recovered as a metal, nor is palladium, although they can be. It is the salts of these metals to which you can become allergic, and with poor work habits, you can easily be exposed to them.

If you are interested in learning to process the platinum group, the gold forum is the place for you to visit. You will not be coddled there, and you are expected to do your homework. One of the moderators operates a refinery, and is an educated chemist, with considerable knowledge and experience with the platinum metals.

So you what are stating that prolonged heating changes the chemistry of the charge. So I ask you, what part of the composition changes? How fast does or how short of a time does iron need to be melted in to avoid the changes in chemestry? I am useing ferro silicone that is 75% silicone, it has about .1% carbon content to it how much do I need to add to raise the carbon content 1%?? <<---Trick question

Lets start out on the right foot. To begin with, ferrosilicon does not contain silicone. It contains silicon, and they are not one and the same.

Your questions can't really be answered, as neither of us know enough to do so. A heat can be sustained indefinitely, assuming it's in an inert atmosphere, or a controlled atmosphere, and assuming it's not in a silicon or carbon enclosure. I am not a chemist, a mathematician, nor am I a physicist, so I am not able to make the necessary calculations.

Harold, I hope that you dont think that I am just trying to be a argumentative PITA, that is not the case i assure you. Quite honestly I look forward to hearing what you have to say even when it shows that I am wrong. I hope you are interested in continuing the discussion, if not I will just move along...

Oh, I think you're argumentative, alright--but I'm willing to continue this discussion to the best of my ability, so long as you remain polite. I fully expect that I'm going to make some statements that are not true, but only because I may be misinformed. Feel free to set me straight if you don't agree with something I say, but do it politely. I don't tolerate rudeness, and there is no reason to become defensive when you read something with which you may not agree. Discuss it as a reasonable person, offering your views. That's how we behave on this board. Those who don't----- well, they're not here anymore.

Harold

[DavidF]

What I find astounding is your assessment of me and my thought processing. If you knew me, you'd understand how wrong you are, but you don't. It's clear to me, as well as to at least one of the readers on this board, that you're quick to settle for results that may or may not be acceptable. I ran in to this problem when I tried (in vain) to hire help with the building project I am completing. All too many are willing to grab one's money and run, turning out less than acceptable workmanship. I'm not suggesting that that is the case with you---as I don't know you, just as you don't know me----but I'm well familiar with folks who fancy themselves as being skilled in areas in which they know little. They are not capable of making sound judgments, as they don't understand the ramifications of not having the knowledge required. Processing cats would be an excellent example of what I speak.

You're missing the point. Safety has been discussed. If you're comfortable working as you do, go with it. That's the thing that was brought to my attention. I do not recall anyone being critical of the results you are achieving, including myself. I thought I made that clear.

Harold, in the first post you stated I am quick to settle for results that may or may not be acceptable, then backed that up with your building project and getting less than acceptable workmaship. To myself and certainly to others it would have been taken as a reference to the quality of my work. I hope that you re read it understand why one would come to that conclusion.

In regards to melting with less than sufficient heat, you hit the problem right on the head. The faster you melt iron, and the shorter time it is held at heat, the better. As you alluded, carbon content is reduced by prolonged heating. Again, that it is a good or bad thing isn't the point. That the chemistry changes is, and that can be either good or bad. It should not be dismissed as not being important.

Im not alluding anything on this one, it is my understanding that iron can absorb carbon from just about anything. This would include the enviroment inside the furnace as well. It has not been a major issue for me or others that have overcome the white iron skin. I think that you are just being supercritical due to the purity that you need to meet when refining precious metals. The same does not apply to the same extent with iron.

[DavidF]

Edison had no one to turn to for advice. That's not true for you. A poor comparison, in my opinion. What's important is that you don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message.

A poor comparison when referenced to the refining of precious metal like platinum recovery Yes, But when it comes to casting Iron in a home foundry a different vew could be taken. Since most of what is written about casting iron in the home foundry states it can not be done properly but when in fact it is being done with excellent results.