Kerr Electro Melt

[ctwo]

That's not human nature. I feel bad that Trainman took his ball and went home...

Well, I appreciated the video, and the advice on safety...

[Harold_V]

That's not human nature. I feel bad that Trainman took his ball and went home...

Well, I appreciated the video, and the advice on safety...

That's as it should be.
This forum isn't about one person beating their chest---it's about sharing knowledge. Anyone who posts should be open to corrections that may be provided by those with experience---otherwise misinformation can prevail, which is not in anyone's best interest.

Comments made in regards to potential dangers have all been done politely. I would expect that those who have taken offense would have shown greater understanding.

Dave, it would be in your best interest to leave what you have posted. If too much material is removed from the board, threads will be ruined. I take a very dim view of that, as it defeats the purpose of having the board. It also creates a lot of extra work for me, as I must then review each thread to determine if it should remain, or be deleted.

Harold

[Harold_V]

I would like to make one suggestion to all members of the forum, Instead of commenting on how things arent safe, how about making comments only showing when they are "doing it right"

Unfortunately, that's really a bad idea. What would be ideal is if those who post procedures were open to constructive criticism, especially when it's offered in a mannerly fashion.

I realize that's tough call. Some folks simply don't have an ego that permits others to interfere with what they believe and say, but the logic behind my position is oriented towards trying to help those who come here to learn. If less than acceptable procedures are presented and there are no comments, they easily assume that what they've seen or read is acceptable. In a sense, we help them get misinformed. That isn't a good idea, and I'd rather see nothing posted than things that send others in a poor or wrong direction. We don't want to be responsible, not even a little, for anyone getting injured, or following bad advice and screwing up a cherished project. That really defeats the purpose of this board.

Here's my advice to you guys. When someone interjects with what may appear to be criticism, accept it in the spirit in which it has been offered, and thank those who contribute. You'll look much better in the eyes of the readers, and better information will have been presented.

If, by sharp contrast, you have strong feelings why your position is correct, voice them, offering examples of why that is. Remember, all of us are teachers, whether that is our objective, or not. We shouldn't be presenting less than good information.

Give it a go. I'll be here to throttle anyone who screws it up for you.

Harold

[DavidF]

Well in that case, let's look at the first video in this thread. The one with the spin casting. Apparently no one notice that the caster wasn't even using gloves. That's unsafe is it not?? Not much else is shown in the video but I would guess that there are other safety practice that are not being followed as well. So don't do what he did guys.
Yes I poured in a area with other combustables in the near by area, and I was not wearing all the proper ppe. If you are casting your own parts don't do as I do because it is unsafe and your luck may not be as good as mine.
Metal casting is inherently dangerous so take what ever precautions you feel are necessary to protect yourself.
Next video I make I will try to do in a fashion that demonstrates proper safety precautions in place.
Take care and have a nice safe day.

[hwboivin3]

Really not that big of a deal.

there's no need for the safety police.

I personally didnt see anything worth all of the negative comments.

geeze,

it's a good thing you guys never see my work habits.


no shoes, no shirt, no safety glasses, beer


and, no I won't post a video. No one wants to see that!!

[Harold_V]

no shoes, no shirt, no safety glasses, beer

It's not for me, or anyone, to tell you what you should do in your own shop. However, I'm not convinced that wearing bad habits as a badge of honor is the wisest thing you can do.

I'd like to relate an incident that happened to me many years ago. It revolves around wearing safety glasses, which had become a habit for me, thanks to having worked at Sperry Utah, where they were mandatory.

Fast forward several years later, when I was operating my own shop, and had begun the process of refining precious metals, which, at that time, was just a hobby for me.

I wore my safety glasses faithfully when I was machining. Old habits die hard, it seems. But, away from the machines?

One day I was processing some gold, in the preliminary operation, where base metals and silver are removed. That involves digesting the metals with nitric acid, which will not dissolve gold directly.

I walked from my shop to the small lab I had set up in my double garage. It included a rather primitive fume hood. Lighting wasn't as good as it should have been, so I had a (bad) habit of removing my safety glasses, which helped, although not much. I determined that the lot in process required more nitric, so I picked up a gallon bottle with the intentions of adding a small amount.

Clearly, if it wasn't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all. The moment I started pouring, a solitary drop of nitric acid popped out of the beaker and hit me square in the right eye.

Any of you who have worked with nitric acid won't have need for me to describe what nitric does to flesh, but for those who have no clue, it instantly turns skin yellow, and kills what it touches. I knew I was in trouble, and I was alone, as Susan had gone with her mother for the day. I immediately ran to the sink and rinsed the eye with water. I then took a look, to see what damage I had done. The surface of my eye was yellow, and shedding.

I won't trouble you with the details, but I got myself to an ophthalmologist, who suggested that I was a pretty lucky guy, as, had the drop of solution been sodium hydroxide (lye), I would have lost the sight in that eye. As it turns out, in a few days the eye had regenerated, none the worse for wear.

You don't wear safety glasses, you say?

It's your eyes. It's not for me to tell you if they're important to you, or not. Only you can make that determination. All I can tell you is that in all my years of wearing safety glasses, I've had to visit the vet twice to have a small piece (grinding swarf) extracted from an eye. I wonder how many I prevented by wearing glasses?

Harold

[Harold_V]

Well in that case, let's look at the first video in this thread. The one with the spin casting. Apparently no one notice that the caster wasn't even using gloves. That's unsafe is it not??

I don't think I'd classify it as being unsafe. If you're not familiar with casting with a small centrifuge, that may not make sense, but gloves are not required, nor are they desirable, as one benefits by the greater dexterity. You don't come in contact with anything that's hot, and there's handling tongs for removing the flask from the burnout oven, and again from the centrifuge, after the flask has been cast. Notice that the metal is melted in situ, so even that isn't handled. Should there be a failure, it is generally fully contained by the enclosure, assuming it has one. Mine does. I recommend (tinted) safety glasses.

Harold

[DavidF]

I find it very odd for you to say that not wearing gloves when casting with a centrfugal caster and an oxy acetyline is an ok thing......
Interesting though that you mention getting a chemical burn in the foundry. I decided to do a little survey a few days ago on accidents in the home foundry and the two things that have come up the most are radient heat burns and chemical burns. So after adding you to the list of chemical burns in the foundry, it has become the #1 cause of burns in the foundy...Interesting, didnt see that one coming... But then again i work and have worked with some very dangerous chemicals, and I am more fearful of them than working around the foundry.
Harold I would Love to see some action shots of you and your precious metal refining process..

[Harold_V]

I find it very odd for you to say that not wearing gloves when casting with a centrfugal caster and an oxy acetyline is an ok thing......

There's a fine balance between safety equipment helping and hindering. Because of the nature of the operation, gloves tend to get in the way. They don't offer much protection, as you aren't involved with handling the materials directly. I'm not suggesting that you might not benefit by wearing gloves, as you could, but it would also make handling the equipment more difficult. A trade off. All I can report is that in all my years of working closely with benchmen, I do not recall ever seeing one of them wear gloves to cast.

Interesting though that you mention getting a chemical burn in the foundry.

It should be noted that my burn was not related to foundry, but to refining. The only thing they have in common is that things get melted. The chemical burn I sustained was not the result of melting anything, it was the result of digesting metals with acid.

I would Love to see some action shots of you and your precious metal refining process..

I have none. Not even still pictures, with rare exception. I recall having one picture of me at my ball mill. In regards to refining, pictures would be akin to watching paint dry, however, as it's not a very visual thing, aside from, perhaps, seeing gold or platinum precipitate from solution, each of which precipitates very differently from one another, but each is quite spectacular to see.

I sold my refining business when I retired, back in '94. Like machining, I was totally burned out on the process and do not miss it at all. I routinely worked long days (ten to twelve hours daily) to keep abreast of the incoming work). I still machine (of necessity), but I have not touched refining since '94, aside from co-moderating the gold forum.

Gloves were a fact of life as a refiner. I used thin rubber gloves daily, taking them off only when I needed my asbestos or Kevlar gloves (melting). I also wore a full face cover when transferring acids from 55 gallon drums to smaller containers, so they could be handled easily. Needless to say, after my stupid experience of getting a drop of acid in my eye, I wore safety glasses routinely. I learned the lesson well.

Harold

[DavidF]

Refining, foundry, any way you want to call it. I may not be defining it to your liking but the bottom line is you were processing the metal to be melted so I am lumping it together.
Too bad you don't have any pictures, I was interested in the process. Not that I have a 1/4 pound of platinum or any thing, but I do have a good number of catalytic converters I've stock piled since the late 80's.

[Harold_V]

Refining, foundry, any way you want to call it. I may not be defining it to your liking but the bottom line is you were processing the metal to be melted so I am lumping it together.

That's your choice, but you are sadly mistaken. Refining does NOT rely on melting, although it can be a (small) part of the process. It all depends on the nature of the material being processed. There are instances where the only melting that is involved is in the final product. Electronic scrap, depending on how it is processed, most likely would not be melted, as that creates problems that are best avoided. In heavy industry, such scrap is sent to a copper refinery for electrolytic parting.

Too bad you don't have any pictures, I was interested in the process. Not that I have a 1/4 pound of platinum or any thing, but I do have a good number of catalytic converters I've stock piled since the late 80's.

You'd learn nothing from pictures. They may be entertaining, that I'll grant you, but the art of refining is not learned by viewing, not even by going to youtube. There's an overwhelming amount of misinformation on the net where refining precious metals is concerned. If you have a desire, my advice to you is to go to the gold forum, where you have the benefit of gleaning advice from several seasoned chemists and refiners.

Catalytic converters can be processed chemically, but the recovery rate isn't great, and it's labor intensive. That being said, be aware that processing them in a furnace requires considerable fluxing and high temperatures. After all, the matrix is intended to be resistant to heat and chemical action.

The greatest degree of success in recovering the values from converters is by high temperature melting. Once recovered, the values are not easily sold, and you generally take a considerable loss, as they, unlike gold, have little need in industry because they are not a single precious metal, nor is the material in a pure state even if happens to be. Vaues so recovered tend to end up in the hands of one or two major refiners, where they are processed and resold in forms that are needed by industry. Bottom line is, you're better off finding a buyer for the cats than you are attempting to make a recovery. You won't realize full value in either case, and the work involved in processing is complex.

Refining of precious metals is beyond the scope of this board. We can discuss it lightly, but it should not become the focus point.

Harold

[DavidF]

Bottom line is, you're better off finding a buyer for the cats than you are attempting to make a recovery. You won't realize full value in either case, and the work involved in processing is complex.

I will agreee with you on this 100% but sometimes people just enjoy trying new things just to see if they can.

Harold your negativity on what one can do in a home based setting is aboslutly astounding. I find your thought process is a typical of some who concentrate solely on one portion of a printed text that... well lets just use the iron melting in a crucible for example. Your reading has indicated that iron will absorb carbon from the crucible changing the composition of the melt and that you would not melt iron in a crucible because of this. Now my question to you is how much carbon can it absorb from the crucible and at what rate. The point I am trying to make here is that you dont need to be pin point accurate to enjoy what you are doing. Are there better ways of doing things? Of course there is, but not everyone has access to or can afford a 50kw induction furnace so we use what we have and can afford, and I doubt my neighbours would find a copula entertaining (but I sure would). But hey anytime you want to part with that furnace you just mail it right on over i would love to see it under my tree at christmas