Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

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Harold_V
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by Harold_V »

SteveHGraham wrote:His free PD probably makes $50,000 per year.

Would you want that person defending you?
Depends, doesn't it!

It depends on if the individual in question takes pride in what he's doing, and if he's learned his craft well. It would be my opinion that judging one because he is serving mankind may or may not be a true measure of his/her capabilities. If that individual has the same attitude about doing things to the best of his/her ability that I have*, could prove to be good representation.

If, on the other hand, the attitude is much the same as that I've encountered all too many times in recent years, it may not matter, as the bulk of the people with whom I have interacted on a fee basis are far more interested in the amount of money they can pocket than doing the work by which they would be earning the pay. There's a serious disconnect in that department with all too many, anymore, taking pride in how much unearned money can be pocketed instead of proving their worth by means of providing excellent service.

*I may not always achieve a level of excellence in the things I do, but it's not because I don't try. I do the best I can, if for no other reason, I have respect for myself and don't want to be thought of as one who is constantly on the take.

Harold
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Dave_C
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by Dave_C »

Right on Harold.

I just finished putting some aluminum panels in the back of my brothers 70 something Nova that has been cut and tubbed for 14" wide tires. He bought it from a person who could not finish the job but most of the work that had been done was done correctly with the exception of the bracing that comes down from the back shelf and attaches to the fender wells.

To make a long story short, my brother could not get anyone to make the metal panels that would normally go behind the back of the back seat which due to the roll bars will no longer be there. The person before us did not get the two 45 degree braces attached to the fender tubs properly. One was off by over 2" so the panels would never lay straight.

So to make it right, I took out the prior work and lined everything up straight. Then I spaced all my blind rivets out on even spaces. My brother commented "no one is ever going to see your work because it will be carpeted over" and I replied "But I will always know".

I'll always know that I did that car and when I think back on it, it will be something I'm happy about and not something I hope no one ever finds out I did.

And I got paid $0.00 for the 4 day job. It is not always about money!

Dave C.
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tornitore45
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by tornitore45 »

In my work, professional or otherwise, the first person I have to please is myself. We will sell no wine until is time ad jingle guided my professional life, I will not release a project until I am satisfied that all aspects are correct to the best of my capabilities. They can crucify me for being late on a poorly scheduled project but I will not be tarred by a "Poor engineer making lousy projects". By the way it was for the money also. (My brother got free machining).
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by warmstrong1955 »

tornitore45 wrote:In my work, professional or otherwise, the first person I have to please is myself. We will sell no wine until is time ad jingle guided my professional life, I will not release a project until I am satisfied that all aspects are correct to the best of my capabilities. They can crucify me for being late on a poorly scheduled project but I will not be tarred by a "Poor engineer making lousy projects". By the way it was for the money also. (My brother got free machining).
Also right on!

Even the simple things....attention to detail, fit, form & function is important. Pride in your work.

I made a pile of drilled & tapped mounting blocks for a local shop a few weeks ago. Nothing fancy, just round & square wacked on the band saw and drilled & power-tapped.
Guy showed up to pick 'em up while I was still deburring & final testing them with a capscrew. Told me not to worry about that....the guys could run a tap thru 'em if need be. No big deal.
Told him to just hang on 10 minutes....big deal to me. If one of his mechanics cuts his finger on one of 'em setting up to weld in place, what's the sense in that? And if a bolt won't start....why? You'll still have plenty of time to make it to happy hour.....stand by....and get a cold one out of the fridge. :D

He waited.....
Mtg Blocks.jpg
:)
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by SteveHGraham »

Harold_V wrote:
SteveHGraham wrote:His free PD probably makes $50,000 per year.

Would you want that person defending you?
Depends, doesn't it!
It definitely depends. For a minor traffic infraction, it really doesn't matter who represents you, as long as they can stay awake long enough to say you're sorry, ask for a withhold of adjudication, and suggest traffic school. BUT When you're looking at a 3-year mandatory minimum combined with a felony conviction that will make you unemployable, you will probably want to shop around.

As a group, prosecutors and PDs are not the sharpest people on earth. The good ones generally leave for the private sector ASAP.

Lawyers as a whole are only slightly smarter than random citizens, and criminal lawyers are probably lowest on the mental food chain.

Don't try to tell that to most lawyers, though. They don't like admitting that engineers and doctors are smarter.
If, on the other hand, the attitude is much the same as that I've encountered all too many times in recent years, it may not matter, as the bulk of the people with whom I have interacted on a fee basis are far more interested in the amount of money they can pocket than doing the work by which they would be earning the pay. There's a serious disconnect in that department with all too many, anymore, taking pride in how much unearned money can be pocketed instead of proving their worth by means of providing excellent service.
I have found that to be an immense problem with tradesmen in my area. Lawyers and other professionals here usually do a good job, or at least they try.
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by PeteM »

SteveHGraham wrote:OK, time to vent.

I joined an electronics forum because I wanted to get quick answers to questions once in a while. I put up a question, and immediately, the little twerps started insulting me and trying to get me to argue with them. The first one to call me stupid was a moderator! I told them I had gotten my answer, but they went on spewing without me.

Is it just me or are engineers, especially young ones, generally insufferable? I put in years studying with mathematicians, engineers, and physicists, and I found that engineers were generally borderline sociopaths . . .
Sounds like it's just (or mostly) you.

Lots of forums expect a minimum level of understanding the field to participate -- and may not appreciate "stupid" questions. True enough, the 'net isn't always polite -- especially if someone enters with an attitude.

My experience of engineers is in stark contrast to yours. They tend to be genuinely curious, willing to help in their communities, great and trustworthy friends, with long-lasting family relationships. Could be because I don't start with thinking they're "generally borderline sociopaths." Then again, one of my best friends is also a former law prof. and city attorney . . .

FWIW, let society shine a mirror on this one. Lawyers are among the least trusted occupations. Calling jurors stupid and engineers sociopaths probably doesn't add to that trust. In contrast, engineers are among the more trusted occupations -- you're not in the mainstream on this: http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/big-data ... 21749.html
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Harold_V
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by Harold_V »

PeteM wrote:Lots of forums expect a minimum level of understanding the field to participate -- and may not appreciate "stupid" questions. True enough, the 'net isn't always polite -- especially if someone enters with an attitude.
Heh!

I've long been associated with a forum related to the recovery and refining of precious metals. There, one is expected to do due diligence in learning the basics, so answers to questions that may be asked will make sense, instead of simply leading to more questions, the answers to which would also not make sense to the unknowing. That has resulted in a firestorm of criticism from those with an entitlement attitude, accompanied with an attitude of not seeing a need to lift a finger in one's education. Just ask, and let everyone else do the work for me seems to be their mode of operation. They don't last long.

Harold
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by juiceclone »

Harold_V wrote:
SteveHGraham wrote:His free PD probably makes $50,000 per year.

Would you want that person defending you?
Depends, doesn't it!

It depends on if the individual in question takes pride in what he's doing, and if he's learned his craft well. It would be my opinion that judging one because he is serving mankind may or may not be a true measure of his/her capabilities. If that individual has the same attitude about doing things to the best of his/her ability that I have*, could prove to be good representation.

If, on the other hand, the attitude is much the same as that I've encountered all too many times in recent years, it may not matter, as the bulk of the people with whom I have interacted on a fee basis are far more interested in the amount of money they can pocket than doing the work by which they would be earning the pay. There's a serious disconnect in that department with all too many, anymore, taking pride in how much unearned money can be pocketed instead of proving their worth by means of providing excellent service.

*I may not always achieve a level of excellence in the things I do, but it's not because I don't try. I do the best I can, if for no other reason, I have respect for myself and don't want to be thought of as one who is constantly on the take.

Harold


Agree 100% There is a great disconnect between the ethics you and I grew up with and the attitude/responsibility of today's society. Don't know how it happened, but I would be ashamed to admit having worked on some of the products or services available now.
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by SteveHGraham »

PeteM wrote:Sounds like it's just (or mostly) you.

Lots of forums expect a minimum level of understanding the field to participate -- and may not appreciate "stupid" questions. True enough, the 'net isn't always polite -- especially if someone enters with an attitude.
I didn't enter with an attitude or ask a stupid question. Even if I had, it doesn't make off-the-wall rudeness a good thing.

People are getting really clannish on this thread. I try to avoid that. I don't think you can say anything worse about lawyers than the things I said.
My experience of engineers is in stark contrast to yours. They tend to be genuinely curious, willing to help in their communities, great and trustworthy friends, with long-lasting family relationships. Could be because I don't start with thinking they're "generally borderline sociopaths."
Well, sorry about that. I was a wee bit over the top with that. I had just come from a forum where a bunch of incredibly rude nerds, including a moderator, were insulting me for no reason. I gave them almost nothing to work with. I didn't respond in kind. They kept it up anyway, even after I left. And it was far from the first time something like that had happened to me (or been witnessed by me) with regard to technical people. I didn't get a physics degree and a math minor without learning a little bit about the left-brain community.

I went there thinking, "I know how these people act on forums, but if I'm careful to be as inoffensive and brief as possible, maybe they will be civil and I can get a quick answer to a simple question." When they confirmed my worst expectations, I was really put out. You know how it feels when someone has been an ass over and over, and you give them one more chance, and they blow it.
Lawyers are among the least trusted occupations.
Trust and manners are different things.

If people don't trust lawyers, it shows how poorly they understand us. They have no idea what we do, but they think they could do our jobs. They can't understand why we earn a good wage, but they feel entitled to resent us for it anyway. When we win or lose, they don't understand why. They have to blame someone other than themselves. They think it was deceit or voodoo or something. And if you try to explain, most people will get emotional so you can't get past the first sentence.

Sometimes a litigant or defendant should just say, "Hmm...maybe I should have paid my child support instead of getting drunk every day. Maybe I shouldn't have stolen from my partner. Maybe I shouldn't have beaten my wife in the front yard." But it's easier to say a sleazy lawyer took advantage of you with mystical legal sorcery.

I saw a defendant get sentenced for murder, and his dad immediately threatened to kill a detective, in the courtroom! Talk about dishonest. He couldn't blame his son for blowing his wife's head off and going out for a beer (and leaving the bloody corpse where it sat in the trailer), so he found a scapegoat. At least it was an armed cop instead of the prosecutor.

Lawyers are not particularly dishonest. They are very honest compared to the people they work with, because you have to be fairly honest in order to avoid becoming an outcast. Also, you can be suspended or disbarred for lying. It happens every day, as you will see if you go to a bar association website and look at the disciplinary actions.

If you spend or "borrow" one cent of a client's money when it's in your care, you can pretty much count on disbarment.

When lawyers are dishonest, it's usually rationalization, not outright lying. They take cases they know are worthless, and they convince themselves they're great. Sometimes they convince themselves their creepy clients are good people who need to be vindicated. They try not to think about the credibility of their witnesses.

CLIENTS are dishonest. They lie like crazy, all day, every day. They lie to their opponents. They lie to the cops. They lie to judges. Then they lie to their lawyers. And lots of them don't pay their bills. That's why lawyers like retainers. If clients were honest, retainers would be considered unethical.

Really, you can't imagine what it's like until you've been there. In a civil case, you have NO idea what the facts are until your client is deposed or you depose the people on the other side, because your client will tell you absolutely anything in order to win. I had a client lie to me about the way the defendant treated him, and then the other side deposed him, and he told the truth! Utterly destroyed his case, after months of work. I went home and wrote a letter telling him we were done. He was furious. I'm sure he still tells people about the slimy lawyer who ruined his great case.

Cops are pretty bad, too. So are witnesses. Expert witnesses may not lie, but they definitely warp the truth. My evidence professor called them Witnesses Having Other Reasonable Explanations, or "WHORES." Unlike most law professors, he was a real attorney, so he knew.

Perjury prosecutions are extremely uncommon compared to perjuries. Witnesses perjure themselves every day, in every courtroom in America. If they were all prosecuted, the streets would be empty.
Calling jurors stupid and engineers sociopaths probably doesn't add to that trust.
One word: "Simpson."

As I pointed out earlier, jurors are the brilliant people who hand down the giant tort awards everyone blames lawyers for. Jurors turn rapists and murderers loose. Jurors give innocent people life in prison. They are a wonder to behold. Jurors are the reason judges have the power to set verdicts aside when they go against the evidence.

My dad defended 11 murder defendants and only lost one case. The defendant was black, and he killed a black man in self-defense. After the verdict was read, my dad heard one juror say to another, "Got rid of two at once."

Many lawyers like to BS about the wisdom of jurors. I have no faith in them. I think it's better to take a loss than to trust a jury.
In contrast, engineers are among the more trusted occupations -- you're not in the mainstream on this
I didn't bring up trust.

I guess this would be a bad time to bring up the Tacoma Narrows bridge.
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by TomB »

Obnoxious describes a personality characteristic that seems hard to define. I'm not sure if my view of lawyers is based on obnoxious behavior or simply inconsiderate behavior but it convinced me that lawyers are simply out to screw their client. When their behavior is contrasted with what is possible for engineers it it apparent that lawyers are in such a different league that they prove the hypothesis false.

After I had paid a young lawyer $10K or so, his senior partner decided I represented a conflict of interest because my partner was in a dispute with a internet distribution company that did not involve me and the president of that company was a friend/client. He explained that they 'having a lot more money to spend on legal disputes' was not part of his decision. The young lawyer was suddenly not there any more I was not represented and as a favor they gave me the phone number of my old lawyer now located at the other end of the state with a firm I knew nothing about. Granted no fees were miss appropriated. I had paid a retainer so they just billed for enough hours to use up the money. But I ended up not having legal representation in an ongoing dispute and will likely lose $200K as a result. I feel that defines lawyers behavior, set up the rules so they can get away with anything, then use that cover to screw the naive. To me it seems like both obnoxious and inconsiderable behavior. I know engineers can make serious mistakes, buildings fall down or dams collapse; people die. But typically those mistakes are not motivated by maximizing the firm's future revenue at the expense of their clients. In that sense engineers just don't play in the same dirty water that lawyers do.
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by SteveHGraham »

Well, that's terrible. But it makes sense to me, and it's a great example of the kind of thing non-lawyers don't understand. In reality, the best thing for the lawyers would be to permit conflicts within firms. Your lawyers lost money when they observed the rules.

You can't play games when you have a conflict of interest. It's extremely serious. There are all sorts of ethical rules about it. Lawyers have an obligation to check for conflicts before accepting cases. Maybe they dropped the ball in your situation?

When it comes to conflicts of interest, as I recall, whoever hired the firm first gets priority. Imagine how you would feel if they booted you over a NEW client.

Imagine how you would feel if you lost. You'd be wondering if they threw the fight. The conflict rules prevent that.

They can't make the decision based on who pays more. He was telling the truth about that. You could report them to the bar and get them in serious trouble.

There are definitely areas where the (lawyer-written) rules favor the lawyer, and they are disgraceful, but this is not one of them.
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Re: Are Engineers the Most Obnoxious People in the Universe?

Post by steamin10 »

Since this has turned to lawyer bashing, I would temper the thread with some observations over my 64 years.

People of character, are taught to fight with a set of rules. Life will hand you bitter losing scenes, and it is hard to accept that.The emotions come first, not truth.

Losers, Cops, and Egotists, will do anything to win. (Whatever their definition of win is).

There is no omnipotent wisdom to protect you, you have to make your case, well. One lawyer said, to me, 'I dont care about the truth, I care about what I can prove.'

lawyers are the hired guns in the politics and paper law of the courtroom. They are in it for the job, that means money, and is no sin. Any craftsman will turn out shoddy work, when the pay dies away, it is justified.

Rules are rules, and must be respected. You have to justify breaking the rules, and that can be hard to do.

Law and life are a double edged sword, that can cut deeply if handled wrong. It is the same for any educated group, that hang a sheepskin. The masses expect performance and mastery from the titled few, and are intolerant of the failures to do majic on poor situations.

I have to personalize this, in that my experience of helping the ignorant, the unwitting, or the demanding, have been the crux of my failures in nearly all situations, and due to ever present politics, you dont always see things coming. So truth is a rock, that cannot be washed away, like the smoke and deception of lies, falsehood, and guess work.

Further, I sayeth not.
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