Educate me on Sawzalls

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Ken Schroeder
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by Ken Schroeder »

The best attachment for a sawzall is the rattle can paint shaker. I have one sawzall that is used strictly for that purpose.
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steamin10
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by steamin10 »

There is a danger in using power to shake spray cans. They have a glass marble, (used to be reject bearing balls), in any power shaker. These and force of the shaker is too easy to overdo it. We had some new but old paint, that had trouble shaking the balls loose to mix the thick pigment, that settled on the bottom of the cans, so, with brilliance of thought we clinched 4 cans in a gallon sized paint shaker. The balls cut loose and made the pleasing rattle sound, and about 6 seconds in, the can burst with authority. As the shaker madly moved on, three cans detonated, and the 4rth split its lid and went flying. It was art neaveau in the paint department.
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by warmstrong1955 »

SteveHGraham wrote: The more experience I have with cordless tools, the less I like them.
I don't get that.....
The more I use 'em, the more I like 'em.

I just got done re-paneling my den with tongue & groove.
I cut the boards with a plug-in Skilsaw & table-saw, but all the trimming, cut-outs for plugs and things, drilling, sanding, brad nailing....all done with rechargeable tools.
All the prep work installing the new doors, the furring strips.... done with rechargeable tools.

Nice, cause you aren't tethered by a power cord, and tripping over 'em all the time.

Either you are buying the wrong stuff, or you are expecting too much?
Like people who buy a rechargeable string trimmer, and expect it to run all day & cut like a 40CC gas burner.....

Bill
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by SteveHGraham »

warmstrong1955 wrote:Either you are buying the wrong stuff, or you are expecting too much?
Like people who buy a rechargeable string trimmer, and expect it to run all day & cut like a 40CC gas burner.....

Bill
I don't trip over power cords, so I don't see a power cord as a big inconvenience.

I think everyone already knows what's wrong with cordless tools, but since you asked:

1. They're never ready when you need them. Older tools have crummy batteries and chargers that kill battery life if you leave them charging. If you take them off, they go dead before you need to use the tools. Newer batteries can be left on the chargers, which is fine, if you think only having one fully charged battery is a good thing, and if you don't mind having a different charger for every tool.

2. The batteries last around a year. Then you find out $220 of the $270 you paid for your drill was for the batteries. This is why you see nice, new-looking cordless tools on Craigslist for $50. The owners found out what new batteries cost, and they went corded.

3. The batteries crap out during jobs. Then you have to wait for them to charge back up, unless you have a big stockpile of $90 batteries which will get you through a whole day's work. If you're not near AC power, so sorry.

4. Many cordless tools can't compete with the power of the corded versions.

5. Cordless tools cost several times as much.

I have two cordless impact drivers. I also have a corded Makita that mops the floor with both of them. It doesn't have a cigarette lighter, makeup mirror, and all the other BS the cordless ones have, but I never miss any of it. I have a cordless hammer drill. I quit using it after the batteries died. I paid about $270 for it. The replacement was something like $90. It's superior in every way, and it will never need batteries.

I have a few cordless tools, but I no longer buy new ones unless I have a good reason to go cordless. I would make an exception for Ridgid products. They claim (or at least claimed) they'll provide free batteries for the lives of their tools.

I don't work for a contractor, so I don't need a bunch of cordless stuff for remote job sites, and I can't call batteries a business expense. Corded tools are always ready. They never need new batteries. They don't need chargers. They cost a third as much. What's not to love?
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BadDog
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by BadDog »

I used to feel the same way you do, and agreed on all points. But things have changed.

The main thing that changed is a I got rid of my old "kits" I had been too cheap to give up on. Some were impulse buys "on sale", and one big multi-tool kit was a misguided and uninformed gift from my wife (she meant well, but I hated those tools!). I swore off cordless completely at that time, making sure I was in earshot of my wife. Everything had a cord, and while it wasn't always the most convenient, I was much happier. But there is not always an outlet nearby, and running long extension cords (and rewinding them) gets old fast.

But then I was helping my son remodel a trashed foreclosure house he bought during the market crash. He had a friend helping who brought a Dewalt cordless drill-driver. At first I snidely thought to myself how the poor sap had been suckered by a sold out "leveraged brand" name. But over the course of a few days, that little tool impressed the crap out of me. He left it for us to use when he had to got to work, and I didn't want to give it back! ;) Not long after that I happened to be at HD getting some stuff for the house I bought not long after my sons (also a bargain basement foreclosure fixer-upper) and happened to run into a Makita event where they were pushing their 18V Li-Ion (blue-black) 2 piece drill & impact sets with 2 batteries. They had a pallet load out in the front main aisle with a guy on a demo bench. The price was the best I've seen, and haven't seen it that low again, and they hooked me.

I can't believe how happy I am with the Makita set! It's probably my most used tool, and my corded varieties mostly just gather dust. The only time I get them is the drill motor when I need more rpm than the cordless can muster, or I want to set up multiple bits in rotation. But 99% of the time, the cordless is the one I reach for (and walk all over the large property with). The batteries seem to last a VERY long time, and with 2 in rotation I can go all day long without pause except to swap the battery after HOURS of steady use.

That purchase was something like 5 years ago, and I still have the same 2 batteries, and they still last a long time. I think one important point to make them last is not to run the down completely. I seem to recall that if you do it makes one or more of the cells back-feed and kills them quickly.
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by warmstrong1955 »

Umm....no.....

1: Older tools with Ni-Cd batteries, and Ni-MH sure. They discharge sitting on the shelf. I used to charge mine up every 2 or 3 months. Also important to discharge Ni-Cd batteries before you re-charge them, or they devlelop a memory. Ni-Mh batteries don't care so much.

Li-ion batteries do dot discharge just sitting. They don't develop a memory. So....you can charge them if they are 2% drained, or 99% drained. They actually prefer to be fully charged when you store them.

2: The 14.4 Ni-Mh battery for my Makita is 4 years old. Last pair, I replaced at 6 years.
My Snap-On Ni-Cd 18V batteries lasted 5 years, and then went down hill fast. I bought a Craftsman 1/2" impactr, and gave the Snap-On to my son....let him get a battery or two. On Snap-On battery cost as much as the Craftsman impact did, w/o a battery....which I already had. Has as much torque too by the way.
My 19.2V Ni-Cd C3 Craftsman batteries lasted 4 years. I replaced them with Li-ion, which two are now 3 years old, and one is 2. Had to buy a new charger too.
If you only get a year out of yours you are doing something wrong, or multiple things wrong.

3: I have 3 19.2 C3 Li-ion batteries, that fit 9 tools. Dead, they charge in an hour. One standard Li-ion battery almost got all the edging done on my yard & around the house & shop this morning. If I'd of used the heavy duty one, it'll do it all and then some. My 'finished' yard, is about an acre. The shop is not part of that.

4: (2) standard C3 batteries, are 75 bucks. The heavy-duty ones are 80 a copy. I've never needed more than two actually.

5: Some can't. I use my 18V string trimmer for the grass & stuff around the house. When I do the fence-lines, I break out the Stihl gas-burner.
Proper tool for the proper job.
My 1/2" drill does as well as my regular variable speed 120V counterpart, but not my Milwaukee Hole Hawg. Again....proper tool.
The 1/2" 19.2 impact will twist off a grade 5 3/8" capscrew. My IR air, will do the same to a grade 8 1/2".

6: Some cost more....some do not.
I buy without batteries, since I already have them.

I don't have a hammer drill. We used plenty of battery powered ones in the mines. Not like you got 120v outlets all over.
Hitachi & Makita were the best. The DeWalts died. 2 batteries would easily get a guy putting in spads or hanging leaky-feeder for a full shift.

And....besides not working in a mine.....you don't live in Nevada.
Power went out the other day, for about 4 hours. Not uncommon. I kept on cutting & sanding with my cordless stuff, rather than fire up one of my gen-sets.

If you buy the right stuff, keep the batteries maintained, you can do well with cordless. Yes, it will cost more in the long run. No argument there. Advantage is, no extension cords. Grab a drill & drill a hole. A must if you are in a place with no power.....

Yeah....what's not to love......
Cordless works for me.

:wink:
Bill
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jcfx
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by jcfx »

I tend to agree with warmstrong1955, batteries are the weakest link in all cordless tools, some batteries are better than others.
and they have to be maintained.

I've sworn off buying any cordless tool in a big box home store, my cordless of choice is Festool, I have one of their older cordless drill drivers
and it's never failed me with two batteries. I've replaced the Festool batteries twice in the six years I've owned it.
I'm starting to use Metabo's as a replacement for Ryobi brand cordless, since Festool doesn't make a angle grinder, and it's a shame because
I like the Ryobi cordless reciprocating saw it's light and I find it great for carving styrofoam, so far so good with Metabo battery life.
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by SteveHGraham »

warmstrong1955 wrote:Li-ion batteries do dot discharge just sitting. They don't develop a memory. So....you can charge them if they are 2% drained, or 99% drained. They actually prefer to be fully charged when you store them.
All batteries discharge when not in use. That's just how life is.
2: The 14.4 Ni-Mh battery for my Makita is 4 years old. Last pair, I replaced at 6 years.
My Snap-On Ni-Cd 18V batteries lasted 5 years, and then went down hill fast. I bought a Craftsman 1/2" impactr, and gave the Snap-On to my son....let him get a battery or two. On Snap-On battery cost as much as the Craftsman impact did, w/o a battery....which I already had. Has as much torque too by the way.
My 19.2V Ni-Cd C3 Craftsman batteries lasted 4 years. I replaced them with Li-ion, which two are now 3 years old, and one is 2. Had to buy a new charger too.
If you only get a year out of yours you are doing something wrong, or multiple things wrong.
Not a problem with corded tools. You don't have to manage them like sickly babies. Plug them in and go to work. And they're a lot lighter to handle.

If you're shelling out for Snap-On power tools, you're probably not too worried about cost versus return.
3: I have 3 19.2 C3 Li-ion batteries, that fit 9 tools. Dead, they charge in an hour. One standard Li-ion battery almost got all the edging done on my yard & around the house & shop this morning. If I'd of used the heavy duty one, it'll do it all and then some. My 'finished' yard, is about an acre. The shop is not part of that.
If I said an expensive battery took an hour to charge, it would be a complaint, not praise. I would not be bragging about it. Many times, I've had to put work down and quit so batteries could charge. The solution to this is to buy more batteries, potentially turning a $250 tool into a $450 tool, with more expenditures certain to come as batteries die. The only limit to the total cost of a cordless tool is its lifetime; as long as you use it, you will have to buy new batteries. Corded tools are always ready to go.

Most people don't have one battery type that fits 9 tools.
4: (2) standard C3 batteries, are 75 bucks. The heavy-duty ones are 80 a copy. I've never needed more than two actually.
Your battery costs and needs are not universal. When I priced batteries for my Bosch drill, they were $90 and up. Within a year or so of purchase, they were dying pretty early. Oddly, this was not advertised on the box. Batteries for my Panasonic impact driver run over $80.
Proper tool for the proper job.

For some people, that means corded tools. That's my whole point.
I don't have a hammer drill.
I don't know how you live. Houses down here are mostly concrete. No hammer drill, no holes.
If you buy the right stuff, keep the batteries maintained, you can do well with cordless. Yes, it will cost more in the long run. No argument there. Advantage is, no extension cords. Grab a drill & drill a hole. A must if you are in a place with no power.....
I agree completely, but your situation is not the same as mine. If I were making my living out of a truck with a ladder on the top, I'd have cordless tools out the wazoo, and I'd deduct the batteries as business expenses. I'm surrounded by outlets, and I use my tools when I feel like it.

This whole exchange reminds me of a Tubalcain video. He picked up a cordless tool that came with a bunch of junk he got at auction and talked about how little use he had for them. I understood completely.

I don't use the cordless stuff unless I have a good reason. Wasting charge cycles costs money.
Every hard-fried egg began life sunny-side up.
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by warmstrong1955 »

Sure, they all discharge, but some more than others.

Li-ion discharge about 1% per month. Ni-Cd's, 10%, Ni-Mh....25%.

Advantage of Li-ion's.....they like to be charged. Use it, charge it. You don't have to cycle it down before you charge it back up.

As far as costing money to charge 'em, not really.
I have a big UPS, charged with solar cells. My computers & peripherals, DRO's, shop doors, and shop stereo, are powered off it. (among other things)
When I recharge batteries, I use the UPS power. The sun has not sent me a bill.

I did my homework.
I maintain my batteries, as they require, just like anything else like your car or whatever.
(I'm tellin' ya, if you only get a year out of yours, you are doing something wrong)
That's why I have 9 tools that use the same battery, instead of 9 different brands that are not interchangeable.
I'll accept that I'll have to buy new batteries in 5 or 6 years. I'll need 2 only. When my Makita battery dies, I'll just buy another drill. My son will gladly buy a new battery to have the Makita, like he did the Snap-On.

FYI.....when you make a living with tools....you do buy things like Snap-On. Horror Freight just won't cut it in a mine.....

Keep your cords. I'll keep my batteries. The convenience is worth the additional cost to me.
I started out with several different brands. Part of the education process....and why I made the switch to one size, one voltage, one brand.

:)
Bill
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by SteveHGraham »

warmstrong1955 wrote:Sure, they all discharge, but some more than others.
Some of my old tools have batteries that discharge very quickly.
As far as costing money to charge 'em, not really.
I don't care about the electricity cost. I care about sitting around doing nothing while a cordless tool that costs 3 times as much as a corded one is idle. This is especially likely to pop up when you have unexpected problems and have to use the tool longer than planned.
FYI.....when you make a living with tools....you do buy things like Snap-On. Horror Freight just won't cut it in a mine.....
I think you can often get better value without dropping down to Harbor Freight.
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by warmstrong1955 »

Again.....maintenance. If they discharge quickly, and they are only a year old, you did something wrong, or you have a defective battery.
My batteries have all been good for 4 years and more.
Even my old 19.2V NI-Cd Craftsman's are still in use, which are over 6 years old or more. I bought an LED flashlight, and a dustbuster kinda thing. Don't need a lotta power for those.

I don't have, and have not had in years, a time where I couldn't use a cordless tool because I ran out of charged batteries. Nine tools....I have three batteries. I could get by with two....but I bought a high amp-hour battery to try.
Again....maintenance, and planning. Finish a job, charge the batteries. Next job, one goes dead, put it on the charger while you keep on working with another battery. Simple no?
Having charged batteries is just like payin' the light bill.....don't do one or the other....your done.

If you buy Snap-On tools off the truck.....chances are, you are paying way way way too much for them. Like a lot too much. They do have some specials, and promo's, but normally, I don't mess with them because there prices on most things are list. I don't pay list on tools.....I know what it is. List is insane. It's how Snap-On & Mac truck-drivers buy new cars, boats & RV's.
I was the manager at an equipment dealership. We also sold tools. Proto, Armstrong, IR, OTC, Jet, Lincoln....to name a few. List price is a joke.
Find a Snap-On Industrial dealer. Whole different duck, (other than the tools) than the cat in the truck. The difference in pricing is shocking. Very often lower cost on equivalent items from good top line manufacturers & dealers who offer good discounts.
Been a lot of times shopping I bought Snap-On rather than other brands because of price. Both for myself, and the company I was working for.
You have to buy right too ya know.

:)
Bill
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BadDog
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Re: Educate me on Sawzalls

Post by BadDog »

Changing Steve's mind on anything is difficult at best, so I don't want to fully join the discussion, but I will say I agree completely with Bill. As a former anti-cordless lobbyist myself, I've gotten something like 4-5(?) years our of my Makita 18V LI drill and impact set, which came with 2 batteries and "smart" charger. And I grab these all the time just for convenience. In the attic, out in my unpowered shed, working on a tractor or vehicle not inside the shop area, there are no outlets anywhere. But even when remodeling my office over the last month, outlets spaced every 8' around the room, I had them both in there going with the impact driving deck screws for new framing and window headers, and the drill/driver making holes and driving dry wall screws etc. I'm pretty sure I didn't charge either battery for entire gut and remodel, which included new walls, new efficiency window, closing in a window, new floors, and some new Cat 6 wiring. If they both die and become nonchargeable tonight, I'll gripe and moan, but the truth is they don't owe me anything after all the work they've done for me. In the span I've had them, my son and I have remodeled 4 houses to greater or lesser degrees, 2 for him, and 2 for me (one was our old house upgraded and converted to rental), not to mention an absolutely endless number of odd jobs for which I just grab the tool and get it done.

On a side note, I wish I had a cordless porta-band (or even recip!). My nonpowered shed houses all my full length 20' stock. Every time I need a piece and don't want to haul a long section to the shop, I have to grab the extension spool, run out over 70' or cord from the nearest outlet, get everything arranged to make the cut, then wind the cord to store the porta-band, then wind up the 70'+ of 12 ga cord strung out across the yard and put that away. All for a 20 second job lopping 4' off a 20' piece of structural tubing...
Russ
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