Spare keys don't work

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whateg0
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Spare keys don't work

Post by whateg0 »

So, I have, over the years, had a number of keys duplicated. And over the years, I have become less and less impressed with the ability of these places to make a key that works. Now, I am sure that if I paid a real locksmith to make them, there is a good chance that they would come out well. But, I never think about needing keys made during normal business hours, and can't get to a brick and mortar locksmith during the day when I'm at work. So, I rely on places like Lowes or Walmart. And I get what I pay for. Junk. The worst part is that the last few keys I've had made were for the kids, or one for me that has the LED built in, so they cost more. For a few spares, I ordered a dozen blanks off of ebay and cut them myself on the mill, using Kwikset's specs for the cut depths. Lo and behold, those keys work flawlessly. Like I had to pull the key out and make sure the door was still locked because it turned so easily. Looking at a few of the older keys I have around, I can see that some are just worn. Several aren't worn at all because they have never been used, but I can see that they key wasn't level when it was cut as the cuts get gradually farther from spec. So, maybe I had a bad key duplicated sometimes.

Tonight, I had a key made for my son at Lowes. It was a special dog pawprint key. I used my LED key from my keyring as a master. The gal cut it and it looked ok at a glance. But when we got home, it doesn't even try to open the door. No amount of twisting, pulling, pushing, cocking, will make it do anything. So, I take it to my desk and get out the calipers. From the key I gave them to use as a master, the duplicate is all 5-10 thou low. From the LED key to the one I machined, all cuts are within about 5 thou, but they slope lower toward the back of the key. So, even if I'd used one of my "perfect" keys, I don't know if it would have come out well.

Tomorrow, we have a family gathering for my daughter's HS graduation, so I can't do anything then, but I think on Sunday I'll take this one back and ask for an un-cut key and make it right. Sure it'll take longer to do, but it's still less time and hassle than driving back to the store and dealing with returns.

Rant over. Anybody else ever have this kind of trouble?

Dave
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Harold_V
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Re: Spare keys don't work

Post by Harold_V »

Heh!
Not knowingly, but I've had a few keys cut and wondered why.

A couple years ago the key for my little Kubota tractor broke. I'd had a couple made as replacements, but they didn't perform real well, and broke quickly. The warm up demands considerable pressure, which brass keys don't seem to like. The dealership "needs" only about $7 for a new one, which is obscene, but all the more troubling when you understand that all equal models tractor use the same key.

Being the tight fisted old curmudgeon I am, and having more than enough attitude about what I like to call "unearned money", I made a key. Didn't start with a blank, but instead with a 1/16" thick piece of stainless. Cut the required slots and duplicated, near as I could, the pattern. Works great, and I saved a whopping $7 plus tax. I'll not make mention of the several hours I dedicated to the task, though, and think you'll understand why! :lol:

Harold
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spro
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Re: Spare keys don't work

Post by spro »

Key machines have to be set up right. My stuff is older and double-sided or weird key blanks present another problem. I've been able to use a blank from a different lock, with custom set up, to make keys. Some locks, forget it. Best locks and others are way beyond. They have spiral tumblers double stacked and feel the key as it goes in. It is almost like working a safe. I can't even talk about those.
Sure regular lock keys can be reproduced and a good key machine is a good key machine but Locksmiths are above all that. Really. If you take the lock apart and all the tumblers are there and many others are there, you can construct a lock which isn't normal. The key is special to that lock but then the thugs bust the door and framing. There are all the "wigglers" available now which jiggle most tumblers - so much for a smooth lock.
Something simple, like the dam lock is just tight. The deadbolt cannot be extracted by simple picking and that makes noise. More to this.
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steamin10
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Re: Spare keys don't work

Post by steamin10 »

in my dayas a class A maintenance mech. I had keys to most every7thing in the pant. even the outside substation. This was accomplished clandestinly after several requests for certain keys were ignored. I had a little metal mint box that had a dozen or so key blanks that were the basis of kwikset, Stanly and Master keys, along with blanks for fork trucks and various mobile equipment.When the opportunity presented itself I would file out a key with my tri corn and needle files, and have another key for my own access.

upon a change of management, I was relieved of my keyset, as company property, and issued a set of numbered keys, like everyone else. Soon there came a time where access was denied because of a lock, and I was instructed to drill the ock and quickly provide access to a storage room that had failed phone equipment inside. I butchered the door in a hurry, and caused a big row. They said hurry, so I did. case closed. Of course I was accused of Attitude. Job done, let someone else worry about attitude when they provide road blocks to efficient operation, that causes magnified expense. I had to dumb down to a managers horizon, after all I work for him, and have to follow the spirit of his decisions.

I too have had many run ins with failed key copies and the time lost and frustrations of getting the situation solved..

On a Ranger I had stored for a while the ignition key failed o operate the ignition lock. after towing the vehicle to a locksmith and having 7 keys cut, they resigned the job, and said to install a replacement kit. A local dealer wanted 300 for the 50 dollar column lock.. My son , genious he is for the bigger hammer theory,{like his dad I think} soaked the lock in wd 40, and tapped the key and drum several times with a small ball peen hammer. Voila, it worked perfectly ever after.

One of the favorites for miscreants, was to force match paper, toothpicks, or super glue into protected locks, just for fun. Ya I worked with some real works of humanity, let me tell ya. They never defeated me. From torching out the glue, to downright forcing the lock case in cabinets with a huge screwdriver and wrench, they never stopped me. But I always turned up the heat with management about such rude acts. They have no place in business.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
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GlennW
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Re: Spare keys don't work

Post by GlennW »

Harold_V wrote: The warm up demands considerable pressure, which brass keys don't seem to like. The dealership "needs" only about $7 for a new one, which is obscene,
You could almost buy a birthday card for that...
Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!
dbstoo
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Re: Spare keys don't work

Post by dbstoo »

Key duplicating machines work pretty much like a miniature horizontal mill with a tracer attachment. They have a milling wheel (aka a cutter) on an arbor and the key blank is moved across the face of the cutter while the blank is mounted to a sliding carrier. Both of my key duplicators use a HSS milling cutter. Each key has a registration surface for depth and a second one for length. There is a "tracing finger" that moves the carrier in and out as it moves along the key's teeth.

Most locks have a little wear and will tolerate a key that's a thousandth or two off, especially if you get used to using the key "just right". If you make a duplicate of a worn key, there is an even chance that the duplicate will be cut a little too shallow or a little too deep. BTW, it's the valleys of the key that count, not the peaks.

To maximize your chance of success with duplicate keys you should duplicate the original before it's used, and then store the original for when you need a new dup.


For a duplicator to work properly,
a) the carrier that holds the original and blank key must be adjusted for cutter wear.
b) the blank and the original must both be parallel.
c) the key blank's registration surfaces must be aligned properly on old and new keys.
d) the original key must be unworn.

Common mistakes made at the hardware store include;
1) using almost the right key blank, not noticing that the registration surface is a few thousandths off.
2) mounting one or both of the keys off center on the carrier
3) Using a well worn wheel and not adjusting for it.
4) Aggressively "buffing the teeth" with a wire brush after cutting, wearing them down.
spro
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Re: Spare keys don't work

Post by spro »

Please read the above post again. I use the same wheel and it is beveled or at an acute angle at the forward side. It also cuts at the back side. As it follows the original key, milling one tooth , the other side is milling the back side of the previous tooth. It is like a miniature tracer mill. It is also similar to single point threading. As the threading tool is dead flat and there is some relief, the other side of the tool is finishing the back side of the thread.
whateg0
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Re: Spare keys don't work

Post by whateg0 »

All true, but the thing to realize is that the person cutting the keys probably has no idea what is happening inside the "big grey box" on the counter. While it's true that duplicating a worn key should result in an already worn out duplicate, if done right a working key should produce a working key. Keys I've cut before were done with a standard endmill. It took two setups, but, as you said, the important part is the heights/depths of the valleys. I've considered grinding a boring bar bit to do this, and maybe this time I will. It's just frustrating that it's the only sure way to get a key that meets my expectations. I guess the old adage "if you want something done right..." fits well.
KnuckleBarker
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Re: Spare keys don't work

Post by KnuckleBarker »

At our local Wal-Mart, there is an older gentleman who works in the auto department where the key machine is located. I've never had a problem with keys he made, but can't say the same for the other, young guys. The older guy takes his time, and doesn't mind opening the machine to check the setup. The young guys jam the key in, and hand it to you with a reminder to save the receipt so you can bring the key back for another try if it doesn't work. Maybe I should try Menards, where they have a self service machine...
spro
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Re: Spare keys don't work

Post by spro »

" Self service machine" yeah I wonder about those. It is some kind of CNC . There is one local and it wants all kinds personal info plus credit card. Then you hand your key thru an orifice and it extracts your watch and wedding ring...LOL just kidding! However, think about all that data when decrypted plus your key. I'd rather deal with the old timer...which turns out to be ...
dbstoo
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Re: Spare keys don't work

Post by dbstoo »

I forgot to mention the other alternative;

All major lock providers publish the specs for the keys. They also provide a "code" with each key / lock. Many keys actually have that code stamped into the bow of the key. If you give that code to a locksmith, then he/she will be able to recreate a key that should work perfectly.

What's the code? It's simple a list of how deep each cut should be. It's not top secret. :) Here's the information for Schlage.

Image
whateg0
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Re: Spare keys don't work

Post by whateg0 »

dbstoo wrote:...If you give that code to a locksmith, then he/she will be able to recreate a key that should work perfectly....
Key thing (no pun intended) being "locksmith". The kids running the key machines at the hardware store are most often far from being a locksmith. Knowing the specs for the key, I can identify the right depth of cut and make a key purdy darned near perfect without having to find a locksmith that's open Sunday afternoon.
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