In search of Precision...

The Junk Drawer is for those Off Topical discussions where we can ask questions of the community that we feel might have the ability to help out.

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NP317
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In search of Precision...

Post by NP317 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:40 pm

Precise language is useful for describing our hobbies:

They're searching for their dog who is over there.
It's looking for its food.

Just sayin'.
~RN

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BigDumbDinosaur
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Re: In search of Precision...

Post by BigDumbDinosaur » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:18 pm

What, precisely, are you trying to say? :D
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mklotz
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Re: In search of Precision...

Post by mklotz » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:42 am

NP317 wrote:Precise language is useful for describing our hobbies:

They're searching for their dog who is over there.
It's looking for its food.

Just sayin'.
~RN
Some folks, myself included, might take issue with your use of "who" to refer to an animal. Most grammar sources say something like this...

An animal is referred as “it” unless the relationship is personal (like a pet that has a name). Then it's permissible to use “he” or “she” when referring to the animal. This also applies to using “who” and “whom.”

So, unless you have a personal relationship with the dog in question, "which" might be a better choice of pronoun.

Nevertheless, I'm in complete agreement with your point. Most of the writing I see these days is littered with hideous misspellings of common words, incorrect use of homophones, and badly butchered grammar. More disturbing is the length to which people will go to justify writing like children.
Regards, Marv

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Dave_C
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Re: In search of Precision...

Post by Dave_C » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:34 am

Gee y'all,

I thought this was a forum for promoting skills related to machines and how to best use them, not a site where we point out grammar errors or spelling errors. As long as we can discern the needs or intent of the person posting I think we do well to help with the original intent of the forum.

After all, we have people from all over the globe making post, even when their first language may not be English.

"He who shows no mercy, to him no mercy will be shown" I may be one of the biggest offenders so I'm willing to overlook the shortcoming of others. After all, is it really going to mater 10 years from now?

Dave C.
I learn something new every day! Problem is I forget two.

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NP317
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Re: In search of Precision...

Post by NP317 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:11 am

LOVE your responses!
BDD: Exactly!
Marv: I was considering that animals are on the sentient scale, thus "who."
Dave: Totally agree. Following Harold's constant teaching here, I post in the same vane.

I like having fun, and educating at the same time. That's what retired teachers do (although my Sons might use different adjectives to describe their Father...)
Smiles, all.
~RN

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BigDumbDinosaur
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Re: In search of Precision...

Post by BigDumbDinosaur » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:13 pm

Dave_C wrote:After all, we have people from all over the globe making post, even when their first language may not be English.
That's all the more reason to post with good English. It's better that non-native speakers read posts that are written by native speakers who have used proper grammar, punctuation and spelling. After all, many non-native speakers look to improve their understanding of English by listening to and reading what native speakers have to say.

The world of metalworking and machining is one of precision. Why not be precise with what is written about that world? I don't expect everyone to sound like a University of Oxford language professor, but I do expect an educated native speaker of English to speak and write in an educated manner.
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GlennW
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Re: In search of Precision...

Post by GlennW » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:42 pm

Dave_C wrote: mater
Uh Oh! :D
Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!

Harold_V
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Re: In search of Precision...

Post by Harold_V » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:27 pm

Well, I, for one, am well pleased that some folks are willing to step up to the plate and help me improve my limited command of the English language, and I am especially grateful for Marv's presence on this board, as he has been instrumental in improving my ability to post in a more acceptable manner. That said, I am far from where I'd like to be, but that's the price I pay for having been a dreadful student, failing to study and learn when I was in school. Some of us were slow to grow up and grasp the importance of getting the education we were offered.

Seal killer has a sig line that says it all. "You are what you write". As has been said, it's better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

BDD's philosophy
That's all the more reason to post with good English. It's better that non-native speakers read posts that are written by native speakers who have used proper grammar, punctuation and spelling. After all, many non-native speakers look to improve their understanding of English by listening to and reading what native speakers have to say.

The world of metalworking and machining is one of precision. Why not be precise with what is written about that world? I don't expect everyone to sound like a University of Oxford language professor, but I do expect an educated native speaker of English to speak and write in an educated manner.
rings true, as others may have a keen interest in improving their ability to converse in a language that, to them, is foreign.

Some folks do not enjoy being corrected, but I had an experience on the gold forum a few years ago, whereby I made mention of a reader's posting inability. He initially took offense, but soon started seeing the wisdom of my comments and made a concerted effort to improve. In the world of gold refining, one works with many deadly compounds, so being improperly informed can lead to serious injury, even death. For him, it was important that he learn to speak and write properly, as others read his comments and could have been misinformed.

Coincidentally, just a week ago I received the following. I have not been on that board in several months, so it came as a complete surprise.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Harold,

I hope this finds you in good health and spirit.

Sixty years on this planet, and I can count my friends and those who have made a major impact on my life (for the good) on one hand.

Harold when I look at that hand you my friend stand out.

I cannot count how many way’s you have helped enrich my life, I already held myself to high morals, Friends like you only help to reinforce and nourish those morals.

Not to mentioning the skill of recovery and refining, and the many technical ways you have helped.

What stands out in my mind now is the first post I made on the forum, and your scolding of how you could not read that crap.

After working at the mill (two years of hard work with slipped disk from lifting heavy steel working on the boiler and Cogen turbine plant of the rough and ready lumber mill, after the plant shut down I went to get certified to be able to weld on boilers, here is where that fist post on the forum and your comments have helped me soo very much.

You have helped me to work on my writing skills, that in turn has led to bettering myself in other academic areas, I would have never been able to do so well in this endeavor if it had not been for you.

Complicated college technical courses and my grades are on the honor roll, thanks to my friend Harold, Not bad for some poor hillbilly from the Appalachian mountains of Kentucky that could not read after graduating high school.

If we touch one person in life we bless them, and if we bless them we ourselves are blessed.

You my friend have blessed me, May God (or whatever you want to call it) Bless you.

Thank you seems meaningless for what I feel.

Richard XXXXXX
For what it's worth, trying to help others, even when it may appear that's not what you're really trying to do, has its own rewards. Richard was dealt a bag of lemons, but had the wisdom to make lemonade.

Edit. The individual's last name has been removed, to protect his privacy.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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mklotz
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Re: In search of Precision...

Post by mklotz » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:43 pm

Well said, BDD.

Introducing the less than perfect writing of non-native speakers is a common tactic by those who think we shouldn't comment on the increasing deterioration of language among the native-speakers. It's usually understood, though often not explicitly stated, that our comments are aimed at the native-speakers.

English is arguably the most difficult of the Western languages to learn. Any non-native speaker who tries to express himself in English should be encouraged for his efforts and he should keep in mind that our comments are not aimed at him.

Many non-natives write better English than the typical native. This may be due to the fact that they had to study and learn the language to acquire any facility. The average native sees no need to learn how to write a language he already speaks and spends his time in English class ogling girls or studying football plays.

For many years now, I've been collecting examples of common writing errors from web fora. Not an English grammar text but more a list of things to keep in mind when writing. The whole collection is too long (and probably too inflammatory) to list here but I'll be glad to send a copy to anyone who would like one. Send me an email at:

enginemaker at verizon dot net

and I'll get a copy off to you.
Regards, Marv

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Dave_C
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Re: In search of Precision...

Post by Dave_C » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:13 pm

Ok,

So what do you do with those of us who have illnesses that cause us to make typos, forget words, type the wrong tense of a word and so on.

I guess it is time to stop posting on this forum as it looks like it is no longer a "home" machinist forum.

I really don't feel welcome or comfortable here anymore....we can't even edit our post after 30 minutes when we do find an error later.

Dave C.
I learn something new every day! Problem is I forget two.

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Atkinson_Railroad
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Re: In search of Precision...

Post by Atkinson_Railroad » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:36 pm

Language is art. It is state-of-the-art, and prior art.
It’s a picture expressing Precision, and junk in a drawer.

JDA ; )
Attachments
Precision.jpg
Precision and Junk Drawers

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BigDumbDinosaur
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Re: In search of Precision...

Post by BigDumbDinosaur » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:54 pm

Dave_C wrote:So what do you do with those of us who have illnesses that cause us to make typos, forget words, type the wrong tense of a word and so on.
Well, you could try doing what I do: proofread until you're satisfied the post says what you mean to say, and does so with good spelling, grammar and punctuation.

Just so you know, I am almost blind in the left eye and have advanced neuropathy in the right arm that has caused a partial loss of motor control in my fingers. My left hand seldom hits the wrong keys, whereas the right hand seldom hits the right keys. It's supremely annoying, especially in my line of work, but that's the way she rolls. I deal with it as best as I can. Errors sneak through, but to err is human, or so I've been told.
I guess it is time to stop posting on this forum as it looks like it is no longer a "home" machinist forum.
I'm not sure how the "home" aspects of Chaski have anything to do with the quality of English used in posts. You're under no obligation to write like a language professor.
I really don't feel welcome or comfortable here anymore....we can't even edit our post after 30 minutes when we do find an error later.
I too find the edit cutoff "feature" annoying, and ill-advised. I am a stickler for good language in my posts, and sometimes will not spot a boo-boo until some time after the 30 minute editing window has closed. However, that's the way the SYSOP wants things—posting in this forum is a privilege, not a right.
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Science makes it known. Engineering makes it work.

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