Adaptor for Gassing Moles

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SteveHGraham
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by SteveHGraham » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:34 pm

I know moles tolerate CO2 better than we do, but I don't know how much better, because it doesn't pop up on Google in the scant amount of time I am willing to spend searching. Obviously, someone somewhere has pumped mole terrariums full of CO2 and determined how much it takes to kill them--I smell government money being spent--but publishing the exact figures on the web must not have been a big priority.

I am not pinning my hopes on CO2, in any case. I like CO because even after it goes away, it keeps killing. A mole that gets a good snootful of it can come up for fresh air and still die.
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by warmstrong1955 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:14 pm

Again....it's not the CO2....it the NO O2 that gets em'.

CO, accumulates over time. The more you breathe it, the more it will replace the O2 in your blood.
But....as soon as you start breathing clean air again, it slowly goes away. It's much dependent on the exposure.

So, with CO.....if what you are breathing has:
200 PPM, the critters will get dizzy, and get a headache, and maybe start puking their little rodent guts out.
400 PPM, major headache, and will kill ya after 3 hours....if you keep breathing it.
800 PPM, you'll be unconscious in about an hour, and will be toast in 2 to 3 hours....if you keep breathing it.
1600 PPM, you have one hour to scribble your will...if you write fast.
3200 PPM, toast in less than an hour.
6500 PPM, 30 minutes tops.
12,800 PPM....you'll hit the floor and be dead in a minute or less.
20,000 PPM, you will flop over dead before you get a full breath in.

A note on catalytic converters....they do absolutely nothing when cold. Gotta be 800f degrees to start working, and they like about 1000. That means when Grandma drives to the local mercantile, the converter on her car is worthless. Same would be true for gassing moles with the family station wagon.

There is your MSHA classes for the day.
:)
Bill
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by SteveHGraham » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:47 pm

If it were just the lack of oxygen that killed, you would have to have WAY more than 20,000 PPM (1/50 or 2% of the total atmosphere by volume) of CO to do you in. You quoted a figure of 9% oxygen associated with forced mole napping, which presumably ends in death eventually. That means you would need to have over 50% of the 80%/20% atmosphere replaced by something other than oxygen, to get you below 40%/10%.

if you add 2% CO to the atmosphere, the oxygen level will barely be affected at all. The oxygen level would be 98% of 20%, or 19.6%, to use approximate numbers. Plenty of oxygen. But if your figures are right, anything that breathes the air will still die.

CO attached to hemoglobin has a half-life of over 5 hours. You and the moles can't just walk outside, breath out the CO, breathe in fresh air, and be fine. If the moles get a good dose down in the tunnel, they will still die after they come up for air. Even if they don't die right away, they could still have enough permanent damage to put them in mole special ed and put a major dent in their ability to survive and mess up my yard.

I saw a Youtube of a gopher that went topside after receiving CO. It breathed like crazy, taking in all sorts of oxygen, but it couldn't walk. Even with the fresh air, it was on its way to meet its 72 gopher virgins. The camera guy stomped on it out of pity.

I didn't think about converter light-off time. Something I haven't heard about in years. It sounds like only the first hole I gas gets the royal treatment. I just looked at a site that says it takes two minutes to get the converter running. So two minutes of quality mole-gassing time, max.
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by SteveHGraham » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:49 pm

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you're saying. If you're saying CO2 is not poisonous, of course, we all know that.
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John Hasler
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by John Hasler » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Even before the converter kicks in you won't get much CO out of a modern engine.

Harold_V
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by Harold_V » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:33 am

SteveHGraham wrote:CO attached to hemoglobin has a half-life of over 5 hours. You and the moles can't just walk outside, breath out the CO, breathe in fresh air, and be fine.
That was my impression, too. If I understand it correctly, CO disrupts the ability for oxygen to be carried, so, for lack of better description, critters (including man) suffocates.

H
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by warmstrong1955 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:27 am

Harold_V wrote:
SteveHGraham wrote:CO attached to hemoglobin has a half-life of over 5 hours. You and the moles can't just walk outside, breath out the CO, breathe in fresh air, and be fine.
That was my impression, too. If I understand it correctly, CO disrupts the ability for oxygen to be carried, so, for lack of better description, critters (including man) suffocates.

H
This is true, but, it all depends on the CO content in the blood. If the content in your blood is great enough to kill you, you are most likely no longer conscience, and probably haven't been for a while. I contend that if Steve's moles or gophers got a fatal dose of CO....they are no longer able to get out of their holes for a breath of fresh air. If they are able to get out to fresh air, then they have not received a fatal dose. Simple as that.

Hemoglobin will absorb CO 200 to 300 times more readily than O2, so any CO is present, it gets top billing.
In mining, it's known as the silent killer......for good reason. All the fatalities I know of, and have heard of, the victims were unconscious before they died, except in cases where miners were in a mine fire, had put on a self rescuer, and then removed it because it was burning their mouth. Self rescuers use hopcalite, which converts CO to CO2. This causes heat, and the higher the CO in the air, the hotter it gets. They do have a heat exchanger, but CO at 15,000 PPM, the air you breathe from the self rescuer is 150f. There have been cases where miners had their mouths burned, and, the men who removed theirs, died....without getting a full breath in.


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SteveHGraham
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by SteveHGraham » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:37 am

You can't prove your point unless you get a juicy government grant and a tank full of gophers.
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by warmstrong1955 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:36 pm

SteveHGraham wrote:You can't prove your point unless you get a juicy government grant and a tank full of gophers.
That's what I need! A big-big heap of taxpayer money, to prove that gophers are susceptible to CO poisoning the same as underground miners!
I'm sure PETA would approve.......
Miners & gophers do share something in common.....both are underworld dwellers. I don't think gophers drill & blast though.
Scoopy with Drager.jpg
;)
Bill
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John Hasler
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by John Hasler » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:08 pm

Just wait until the woodchucks move in. The gophers don't undermine your buildings or create chuckholes (there's a reason for that name) big enough to bend the spindle on a tractor front axle.

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SteveHGraham
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by SteveHGraham » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:41 pm

Wikipedia says we don't have groundhogs this far south. One less thing to worry about.
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NP317
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Re: Adaptor for Gassing Moles

Post by NP317 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:48 am

SteveHGraham wrote:Wikipedia says we don't have groundhogs this far south. One less thing to worry about.
They don't like salt water... :lol:
~RN

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