Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

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BadDog
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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by BadDog » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:53 pm

Harold_V wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:33 pm
Here's a picture of the Douglas Fir with two people standing in front to help you get an idea of their size.
I would say it looks like their size appears very small. First confirmed sighting of Hobbits?
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by SteveHGraham » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:48 pm

If the man is Douglas Fir, who is the woman?
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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by Harold_V » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:48 am

Chuckle!
Yeah, ok, so I said it kind of stupid-like! :oops: :oops: (No hobbits, as one can clearly see by looking at Fats).

Douglas Fir trees don't have a buttress trunk like the Western Red Cedar, which is actually larger (at the base) than the fir. It's not as easy to access, though, although near by. Anyway, you can clearly see that trees, here in the NW, were something to behold.

That nice young lady is my wife. Fats is a now deceased older friend (we attended Greek School together) from my childhood, who paid a visit not too long before he died. He used to be a journalist--sports writer for the LV Review Journal.

H
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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by steamin10 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:51 pm

Just a piece of spurious information: in ancient pre history the firs and sequaia grew in a belt all across the North of the American continent. Their evidence is in the coal seams of central Indiana and Illinois as the ice ages bulldozed and covered the forests in their advance. Changes in altitude out West and the East precluded their regrowth due to weather pattern changes, and gave way to other forests and growth of lesser dimension. The Earth was somewhat warmer then too, which makes the ice ages a mystery as for cause. We think of the Earth as a constant, but it changes slowly. The tides are slowing the rotation from over 400 turns per year to our present 365. And the continents drift and collide raising new mountains along coasts. It is a wonder to track all the developments over the time line of History. Not to mention that 98% of all species that ever lived are extinct. To me it is sad such trees are gone for good, as they will never regrow without the needed support of the terminal forest that created the conditions for their survival. The sequuia need their shade to cool the ocean air so the needles capture moisture to spur growth, and the dead falls support the sprouts of new trees by way of nutrients returned to the forest floor. When the trees are removed. all that energy and chemistry is removed from future growth. Will you wait 3oo years to harvest the next redwood? I think not. The behemoths are gone. And we barely noticed.
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by SteveHGraham » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:31 pm

It's amazing how much of America has been logged. We don't even know what a real forest looks like.

When you watch something like "Last of the Mohicans," you don't think about the fact that the scenery is way off. Movies show people running round in front of modern trees with two-foot-wide trunks. In reality, Hawkeye and his buddies would have been moving through trees with trunks over 10 feet thick. And a lot of them would have been American chestnuts, which are now seen mostly as stumps with a few blighted branches.

That was in the east, and it was plain old hardwoods, not redwoods.
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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by liveaboard » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:34 am

If it isn't logged, it burns.
At least in the US, there are still animals; dear and elk all over the forests, eating small growth.

Over on this side of the puddle, everything has been hunted to extinction. There are some boar supposedly, maybe they're feral pigs. Very rarely, one catches sight of an otter or rabbit. No squirrels at all, which is sort of spooky.

Until 30 years ago, the rural areas were heavily populated by humans and their domestic animals, but not anymore. People who live in cities get weekends off, health care, and education for the kids.

So we have big fires and no old growth.

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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by warmstrong1955 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:57 am

liveaboard wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:34 am
If it isn't logged, it burns.
That is a fact!
Sad state of affairs in California right now. We are in the path of much of the smoke.
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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by SteveHGraham » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:15 am

I'm not a tree-hugger, so don't get me wrong, but I have to point out an obvious flaw in the assertion that if you don't log it, it burns.

When civilization came to North America, it was full of trees that were hundreds or thousands of years old.

Why hadn't those trees burned?

If a tree can go 2,000 years without burning, I'd say it's not a fire risk.

Isn't it brush and crap, usually lit by cigarettes, that start wildfires? Setting a tree on fire is very hard.
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by warmstrong1955 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:33 am

SteveHGraham wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:15 am
I'm not a tree-hugger, so don't get me wrong, but I have to point out an obvious flaw in the assertion that if you don't log it, it burns.

When civilization came to North America, it was full of trees that were hundreds or thousands of years old.

Why hadn't those trees burned?

If a tree can go 2,000 years without burning, I'd say it's not a fire risk.

Isn't it brush and crap, usually lit by cigarettes, that start wildfires? Setting a tree on fire is very hard.
Brush is most often the problem. It's a matter of fuel. More people are another problem, building in places they shouldn't build.

Study the west, the 1920's & 1930's. Lots of major fires....like this year, only back then it was year after year.
Then we had forest management, starting in the 50's. Logging, thinning, controlled burns, brush removal, fire breaks, and ad campaigns like Smoky the Bear.....major fires diminished....but no more after the 80's however. (Remember the fallacy of the spotted owl?) Forest management went away. Let it grow, and burn, naturally. (Yellowstone is a good example) Major infestations of bark beetles killing millions of trees, to the tune of 30 million in California alone, 130 million if you count natural and drought die off.... but you can't log that either. Canada is the same way.....refer to Haines Junction, and the forest kills there by beetles, which I have seen many times, year after year after year, because it wasn't allowed to be logged. So, what is happening now, is not any surprise to many of us.
I'm no tree hugger either, and I don't want to clear-cut the west & Pacific northwest. But we do need logging, and thinning, and brush cutting & removal, and fire breaks....again. management.

Bill
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by SteveHGraham » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:55 am

I can completely believe there are people in California who are against killing weeds. I don't question that for a second.

My property is now overrun with wild grape vines. I'm looking into ways to exterminate all forms of brush with an easy afternoon of spraying.
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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by John Hasler » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:00 pm

SteveHGraham wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:15 am
I'm not a tree-hugger, so don't get me wrong, but I have to point out an obvious flaw in the assertion that if you don't log it, it burns.

When civilization came to North America, it was full of trees that were hundreds or thousands of years old.

Why hadn't those trees burned?

If a tree can go 2,000 years without burning, I'd say it's not a fire risk.

Isn't it brush and crap, usually lit by cigarettes, that start wildfires? Setting a tree on fire is very hard.
Large trees are quite difficult to get to burn. Thus understory fires can burn right through a forest containing such trees without killing most of them as long as such fires are frequent enough to keep the brush from developing to the point where it can support a large enough fire to get the big trees going. If there are a lot of such trees they shade the brush, slowing its growth.

Attempting to suppress all fires (and succeeding in suppressing most), as was done in the National forests for decades, allows the brush to proliferate without limit. Eventually a fire always escaped control, and when it did it went to the tops because there was so much fuel in the understory.

Of course there were plenty of fires (most are started by lightning even today) before logging started, and some of them went to the tops and destroyed some of the large trees. However, there also was a *lot* of forest.

Fires in arid areas where large trees can't grow is a different problem.

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Re: Tractor v. Diesel Pickup

Post by John Hasler » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:03 pm

SteveHGraham wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:55 am
I can completely believe there are people in California who are against killing weeds. I don't question that for a second.

My property is now overrun with wild grape vines. I'm looking into ways to exterminate all forms of brush with an easy afternoon of spraying.
2-4D works on almost all broadleafs. Glyphosate works on almost everything. Both are effective against grape.

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