What does it take?

[Richard_W]

In your small lathe I would probable have either a brass or copper rod to gentle tap the part to align it. Also I like lead hammers for lining up stuff in the lathe. Like you said Bryce, it all depends on what you are doing.


Richard W.

[SteveM]

But, in the arena of education, there is no penalty for ineptness and incompetence.

Actually, there is reward for incompetence. Failing schools get more dollars pumped in. Why excel when it means your budget gets moved to another school.

I did a study using various statistics in the state of CT, which included results on test scores. I tried correlating anything I could to test scores.

Income? no.
Teacher salaries? nope.
Dollars spent per pupil? nah.
Racial makeup. no.

The only statistic I could find that had even a mild correlation was the average number of books per person taken out of the library. Darien had about 20, Bridgeport (which actually has a very good library) was less than 1.

Reminds me of the line from Good Will Hunting:

"You dropped 150 grand on a ******' education you could have got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library!"

Steve

[Harold_V]

It would be quite impossible to ask him as he has been dead for quite some time. He was retired when I had him over 40 years ago, no doubt he had been machining long before you knew what a machine was.

And your point is?

I'm not implying anything about your instructor, but that he was one proves very little. It does not imply he had credentials, only that he was an instructor. My machine shop instructor in high school knew less about machining than I did. He had been a life-long wood shop teacher, but had to step in when the machine shop teacher died unexpectedly. He, too, had opinions.

Time in grade makes no difference if time in grade has taught you nothing. I worked with a fair number of seasoned machinists that had little or no talent, and struggled routinely. Not everyone is cut out to be a machinist. Consider also that getting educated doesn't necessarily translate into success. We see that in some people that seek an education. Four years of college and a degree. In many instances, the end result is nothing more than an educated fool.

No doubt he had a reason for teaching students not to use hammers on lathes.

No doubt. Also no doubt, there was a reason why it was not considered proper to open an umbrella in one's house. Surprisingly, perhaps, but I don't subscribe to all that nonsense, although, if a person can't judge what a tap is as opposed to a severe strike with a hammer, I suppose that teaching a student to never tap a part with a hammer is the best route to take.

Sadly, it is performing a disservice to the student. If you believe that to not be the case, I invite you to my shop, where you can demonstrate to me how you'd dial in a part in my four jaw. It's new, has been used very little. It's a replacement for the original which was out of balance when the jaws were central and could not be operated at speeds that are desirable.

It could be that using any hammer on a small lathe could easily destroy its accuracy. How could you possibly know that as your 4 jaw weighed 10 times more than a micro lathe.

Yes, that's true. It is also true that one can die from drinking too much water. Do you recommend everyone abstain from drinking water to insure they don't die from an overdose? Seems to me, it is best to teach good and accepted practice and leave behind all the voodoo that makes no sense.

I think he was teaching because he enjoyed it. As he was retired.

And you assume that because he was teaching that he had the proper credentials? That his shop practice was acceptable? How can you know that? How many years of practical shop experience did you have when you made the decision that this man knew what he was talking about? For that matter, how much experience do you have now? How many years of schooling in the fine art of machining do you have? On what are you basing your comment that hammering isn't an accepted practice on a lathe? Right now, your opinion is worthless, for it goes against everything I have been taught and experienced since beginning my career in the shop in 1957.

So what is your excuse for not plying your trade?

I have no "excuse". I have a reason, however. I earned my retirement. I was also astute enough to allow a retirement at age 54, thanks to being self employed and understanding my trade well enough to garner some of the finest of customers, doing the type of work that suited my qualifications. By the way, using a soft hammer to dial in parts in a four jaw was very much part of that success.

When was the last time you actually worked in a production environment... remind me.. how many years?

Many, and if I was to apply myself now to a production environment I would be worthless. Do not misunderstand. I know my qualifications and my limitations. I am not qualified to run successfully in today's environment, but I am perfectly qualified for running manual machines in an industrial setting, in light production. That was my field, and I explored it to my satisfaction.

Again, may I ask you how much experience you have in this field? You seem to know much more about it than those that have spent years in that environment.

Do you enjoy attempting to teach on this forum?

Depends on the student, doesn't it? When I encounter someone that thinks they have the answers and they don't, no, I don't enjoy it. It detracts from the learning process because those that are trying to learn can't sort crapolla from useful information. Having an ongoing dialogue with someone that is badly informed and refuses to acknowledge that which is accepted as true by the masses doesn't help.

It has been said that a wise man does not argue with one that is out of their field of expertise. Bystanders may not be able to discern which is which. I believe that to be true.

Loosen the 4 jaw, move it, then tighten 4 jaw. On small lathes such as mine it could be the preferred method.

Could be? On what are you basing your opinion? Could be implies that using a hammer may well be the solution. (It is!)
Have you ever tried to dial in a plate within a half thou, and done it by loosening the jaws, moving the plate? Have you?

I have.

It doesn't work.

It may work if you have endless time to fiddle with the part. It is not reliable.

If you expect success in a timely fashion, you must snug the jaws, holding the object with pads (aluminum or copper) and tap the part until it runs true. You can spend a full day chasing a part when loosening the jaws. That's fact, not a housewife's tale.

Some of the finest machinists I have had the pleasure to know, and with which I have shared time in a shop, seem to be able to use a hammer on a lathe without damaging the machine or the part.

And no doubt these lathes were in such poor shape, that was the only way to get the part aligned. No doubt they were in such poor shape because someone hammered just a bit to hard. And after years of hammering the chuck became useless.

Interesting how you'd know that. I seem to recall the EE Monarch I ran was only a year old, and in pristine condition, as was my Graziano, which was purchased, new. Hammers had been and were used to dial in parts. Both machines seemed to enjoy a long and productive life. My Graziano is now 42 years old. Still runs fine. The Monarch was still in excellent condition when I left the facility, with the lathe being 8½ years old at that time.

On the other hand, the home machinists does not have a trashed 4 jaw so he does no need to hammer on it. However, your recommendation to hammer on it will no doubt cause someone using a micro Taig to destroy it.

Interesting how you seem to "know" what the home machinist owns. I dare say you don't have a clue what the home machinist owns. Some of these guys have state-of-the-art equipment, while others own machines that may have 100 years to their credit. How they operate their equipment is something you can't know, so you would be well served to not speak for them.

You answered your own question why you should not recommend that home machinists hammer on his 4 jaw. Even if you don't understand that even a 8 ounce ball peen used on a small lathe such as a 36 pound micro lathe could harm it.

Yes, I see that. In your hands, it likely would. In the hands of one that is qualified, it wouldn't. Perhaps the day will come when you understand the difference.

When you say something, some home machinist will consider it the bible because it comes from you.

What a lovely thought! I hadn't considered that I may have such an impact on the readers----I was just trying to pass on to them the knowledge passed to me by my peers.

Some see that and appreciate the effort. Others like to stir the pot in an attempt to discredit offered information, likely in an attempt to appear as being knowledgeable, when in truth they are not, and have a poor sense of direction.

It is my hope that they do understand that using a hammer (of many descriptions) is perfectly acceptable when dialing in a piece in a four jaw. It is, and always has been. You simply must have enough wisdom to know what to hit, when to hit it, and how hard. With luck, you'll learn that valuable bit of information and have greater success in the future.

One of the things that you apparently don't understand is that a four jaw chuck does not determine the quality if a setup. A worn chuck is every bit as useful as a new chuck. It's the operator that makes the difference. If you must have a pristine chuck in order to succeed, you are lacking in skills that are important to success as a machinist.

Four jaw chucks are made to hold parts of any and all configurations, and are intended to be adjusted for the desired condition. The use of a hammer in keeping with the circumstances is very much a part of that.

You very rarely seem to consider the size of the machine when you make posts such as this. Such advice may be appropriate for a 10,000 pound lathe, but not for a 36 pound lathe.
Bryce

I think you need to show a little more respect for the readers of this forum. You're implying that they don't have enough sense to know a tap from a heavy blow. I give them much more credit than that, and I'd be rightly offended if I was someone reading your comments and didn't understand that you were wrong. If you aren't able to discern the difference, please do not imply that others have the same shortcoming.

Harold

[toastydeath]

Every machinist in my shop, including four classically trained tool and die makers, uses a standard one pound soft face hammer (or handy chuck of metal) to do four jaw alignment by tapping it on EVERY size lathe. Guys who can square a block of metal with a file? Yeah. They're swinging hammers and blocks of copper.

Both tool and die makers who have instructed through my school use a one pound hammer or chunk of metal to do four jaw alignment.

That's about two hundred and forty years (average ~40 years * 6) of combined experience, working on parts 1/4th and smaller on who felt it appropriate to hit parts their entire career with a hammer for alignment, on machine tools far, far more expensive and delicate than a Taig.

If any one of those gentlemen saw me screwing around WITHOUT a hammer, wasting my time because I was afraid to do it right, I'd be appropriately taken off the lathe and sent to go deburr parts or sweep up the shop.

[Harold_V]

Doesn't matter, toastydeath. Bryce has spoken. Hammers are not acceptable. <snicker>

He also told me some time ago that soft jaws are not appropriate for holding parts.

No wonder all our production has gone across the pond. We've been doing it wrong for years!

Harold

[steamin10]

Ouch! I gotta throw my dead blows, my 'lathe ' hammer made of scrap and that beat chunk of brass away! No wonder I cant use my SB, Its BEAT!

[Harold_V]

So there are no misunderstandings why this thread is locked, two posts by Bryce have been deleted. He appears to be unable to accept comments from those that have experience in the field of machining, and doggedly defends misinformation that is misleading for those seeking advice. He, instead, prefers to argue over matters in which he finds himself alone, as if to imply that everyone is wrong, and he, alone, knows proper procedures.

Harold