What does it take?

[SteveHGraham]

I went to a prep school. No shop, no machining, no nothing. Now people tell me to take machining, welding, and woodworking classes. But you can't do it here. There is nothing available, except for five-day-a-week vocational classes. No adult in his right mind is going to sign up for those. They're for full-time students who plan to get certificates and apply for jobs.

From time to time, I check the local college offerings, but so far, nothing has turned up. Looks like it's books, videos, and trial and error for me.

[Willy B]

Steve, look at it this way: After you learn all the wrong ways to do something, all that remains are the correct ways. The trick is knowing when you've exhausted the list of wrong ways. I'm not sure I'm at the end of the list.

Bill

[Jose Rivera]

No shop, no machining, no nothing. Now people tell me to take machining, welding, and woodworking classes. But you can't do it here. There is nothing available, except for five-day-a-week vocational classes. .

This is not where you live, it is country-wide

[BryceGTX]

It would be wonderful if machine tool classes would become parts of school curriculum as they once were

Over 40 years ago, I spent 6 years in metals and machine shop training. I learned how to use everything from tin snips, files and hack saws to arc welders, lathes and mills. I am quite amazed at some of the crazy things I read on this forum from supposedly accomplished machinists.

So who is right; the machinists from a production environment where time is money or the guys that have been through the classes?

[seal killer]

BryceGTX--

I am certainly no machinist nor did I have more than one week on a metal lathe in high school! But, I did spend my career in higher education where money is absolutely NO OBJECT. We spent millions upon millions of tax payer dollars every year. (Heck. Even I spent millions per year as a dean.)

We provided the best education money can buy. There is only one problem with this: Money cannot buy a good education (in the traditional, academic sense via public high schools and public higher education).

The guys with years and years of of experience . . . plus, many of them with true vocational educations, are the machinst experts. Have no doubt.

--Bill

[BryceGTX]

BryceGTX--
The guys with years and years of of experience . . . plus, many of them with true vocational educations, are the machinst experts. Have no doubt.
--Bill

In a forum, it is not what you do that is in a post... It is what you say that is in post. Quite different things..

A person can be incredibly brilliant in either classes or in experience. But that brilliance may not come across in a post on a forum... and in many cases is just down right wrong.

Many people mistakingly believe based on the person saying it... even though its wrong.

BTW... my question was rhetorical... there is no right answer

[GlennW]

Just because one does not agree with or is not familiar with some of the posted methods/practices, it does not necessarily mean that those methodspractices are incorrect.

That is sort of like saying that if one has not heard of a certain process that it can not exist.

Carbide can be machined rather than ground. True or false?

[mechanicalmagic]

Carbide can be machined rather than ground. True or false?

Define "machined" and "ground".
In my mind they are exactly the same, except for the scale. In both cases, a sharp tool scrapes/cuts material off the part.

Dave J.

[GlennW]

As in cut, not ground. Turned on a lathe.

[seal killer]

BryceGTX--

Respectfully, there is a correct answer even though the question may have been rhetorical. The correct answer is the one I gave. I will elaborate a bit.

In (public) education there is no bottom line to which we adhere. All budgets are vague. None of the academic administrators are trained in budgetary matters. (This is a general statement that is generally true.) Even without these real-world parameters, there are some truly expert academic administrators and some great educators, but none of us are bound by real-world scenarios. This situation breeds incompetence and political correctness. (We invented PC.) Both abound. In my three decades in higher education, I knew a few good administrators and three, maybe four true educators. (When I was in the classroom, I was merely a very good teacher. This means I was qualified to carry water for the true educators, which as a dean, I did.)

In the machine industry, (generally speaking) the opposite is true. Only the cream of the crop rises to the top. Without a doubt, there exist levels of expertise--or lack of it--in the machine industry just as in the education business. But, in the arena of education, there is no penalty for ineptness and incompetence. In the real world of which the machine industry is part, there are great penalties. Application of these penalties allows only the best (or those occupying the higher levels in the expertise hierarchy) to garner true success over an extended period of time.

Those awarded a machinist's certification who then successfully remain in the machine industry for decades are the ones to whom we turn to find true machinists. We certainly do not turn to the educational establishment to find true machinists. This is not to say that true machinists do not work as teachers, even educators, in high schools and colleges. It is just unusual due to salary structures.
The same holds for educators: We do not look within the machinist's trade for educators. Certainly, educators exist within the trade, but they are the exception rather than the norm.

It is too bad that EXACTLY the same is true of education.

Cordially and respectfully,

--Bill

[BryceGTX]

Just because one does not agree with or is not familiar with some of the posted methods/practices, it does not necessarily mean that those methodspractices are incorrect.

Each person has their own definition of correct or incorrect.

Some people look at the poster to determine correctness.

Some people compare the information with accepted practice to determine correctness.

Glenn, you are reading too much into my post. Jose seemed to indicate classes are important. Bill indicated experience is important.

I judge correctness by accepted practice and the literature. If they all agree, post is correct. I expect the experienced machinists to be correct. Because too many people look at the person, not the content. They must be particularly careful what they say.

[BryceGTX]

BryceGTX--

In (public) education there is no bottom line to which we adhere. All budgets are vague. None of the academic administrators are trained in budgetary matters. (This is a general statement that is generally true.) Even without these real-world parameters, there are some truly expert academic administrators and some great educators, but none of us are bound by real-world scenarios. This situation breeds incompetence and political correctness.

In the machine industry, (generally speaking) the opposite is true. Only the cream of the crop rises to the top. Without a doubt, there exist levels of expertise--or lack of it--in the machine industry just as in the education business. But, in the arena of education, there is no penalty for ineptness and incompetence. In the real world of which the machine industry is part, there are great penalties. Application of these penalties allows only the best (or those occupying the higher levels in the expertise hierarchy) to garner true success over an extended period of time.

--Bill

Bill, you are arguing with me saying educators are idiots... Ok.. I take that. However, I am talking about the student.. not the educator.

Remember that machine tools, cars, engines are designed by engineers who were educated by your idiot educators. They were not designed by machinists.

BTW.. my instructor was a brilliant retired tool and die man. With decades of experience.

A good example:

1) Machinists in production environment with decades of experience tells me to hammer on a part in a four jaw to align it.
2) Instructor says, you touch my lathe with a hammer and I cut your arm off.

Who's right??