gmann109 wrote:It is pretty much in line with other similar opinions I've heard here and elsewhere - basically that it's necessary to have on the job experience in machine work, to become truly proficient as a machinist. I hope I'm summing it up correctly. If not you may rephrase it.
No need to be rephrased. What I stated has been proven time and again in practice. On rare occasion, one encounters what is a "natural", that instinctively is in tune with any given function, but we're not talking about that kind of individual. I am a perfect example of someone that badly needed guidance by his peers and superiors. I've recounted my woeful tale a few times, so I won't go into it again in this particular thread, but I struggled for ten months, wandering aimlessly, as I was in training. I knew the basics, and had known them for some time, but I lacked practical experience. Only with repetition did I start improving. Practice, practice, practice.
To make it even more complex, the apprentice system is in poor condition in this country. When unions were strong, they needed williing workers to come in and do the menial tasks, all with the uinderstanding that they would eventually learn all of the complex operations that are found in a traditional machine shop, nearly 100% manual at that time. If all went well, in a few years they would proudly take the title of journeyman machinist. These now are the elderly machinists to whom you refer, many of whom I've met and dealt with in my career and for whom I have only the highest respect..
Indeed! Although you may be paying too much tribute to unions. Many non-union shops turned out excellent machinists. Reason? They had highly qualified individuals showing the way----showing the kinds of things you can't find in books. That was especially true in my individual case.
While it's a commonly held belief that seasoned machinists have experience in all facets of machining, in practice that is simply not the case. Rarely will you encounter a machinist that is exposed to all facets of machining, and should you, it's entirely possible he might not have any particular skills. It is correspondingly rare to find a shop that is all encompassing. What machinists learn in training is how to learn, along with strengthening their skills. Sort of like going for a formal education. You learn how to learn the things you need to know to be a success in the job you prefer.
Some of the specialized fields of machining are so complex that they are a life-time study. You might look at it much the same way you would as an attorney, where each tends to specialize in a given type of law. That way they can become an expert in their chosen field.
You are certainly correct that they are a dying breed. men who could calculate things in their head and come up with a proper solution to complex mechanical and machining issues.
Given that this it true, what does this mean to the aspiring home shop machinist who perhaps works a day job as a truck driver or an accountant to support his family and will likely never work on the job as a machinist? Will it forever be a limiting factor for their capabilities. Will they always be a few thousandths off, to put it in the vernacular?
In my opinion, it doesn't manifest itself that way. How it tends to manifest itself is in keeping with the exposure one has experienced. One may well turn out good work, but slowly, and often using poor procedures because better methods are not known. In some cases, safety becomes the issue.
I've commented several times that many of the self made machinists have learned from books. Trouble is, rarely does an exceptionally skilled person write books. They are often written by those that have a flair for writing, but not necessarily well (I'd like to say properly) informed on machining practice.
Fact is, that's the key reason why I stopped subscribing to Live Steam Magazine, years ago. I don't mean to sound rude, but the "how to" articles that were published promoted methods that were primitive and often yielded poor results, when having worked as a machinist, I could see several ways to improve on the operations specified. The "dumbing down" was beyond a level I found acceptable. That, of course, raises the hackles of those that don't agree, but if any of those that don't agree were to evaluate methods or processes that related to their field of expertise, supplied by the novice, how would they interpret the well meaning, but poorly directed, information?
Remember, even though filled with desire to build things from metal, many of these people have little to no practical experience. Even if they wanted to get such a job, minus any experience, they would be lmited to only the most menial of tasks - cleaning parts and machines, handling materials, making deliveries. It could be years of low-paying work before they would ever get a job to do on their own.
It appears you are inclined to read my comments as if everyone must work in a commercial shop. I didn't say that, nor did I mean to. What I am saying is that regardless of the amount of studying one does, they will not improve their skills. In order to do that, they must get their hands dirty. No dirty hands? A questionable skill level. If an individual enjoys making chips, they should make chips to the best of their ability. What they would gain from working with, or otherwise associating with, those that work in the trade (not as machine operators, I might add), is the kind of knowledge rarely found in books, that of how to make parts efficiently, and with the greatest degree of precision.
Want an example?
How many home machinists do you know that understand the concept of roughing parts before finishing parts? How many know what it really means, and how to go about the task? That is common knowledge amongst those of us that have done precision work routinely----yet we are met with blank stares and doubtful looks when it is mentioned.
And yet aother issue just came to me while I was pondering this matter - the issue of CNC machining work which unlike "Hands-on" manual machining of the older machinists might be called "Hands-off" where the computer and servo or stepper motor machining center, perhaps even robotically loaded, performs all of the operations from a chunk of billet metal to a finished part.
While the good machinist's theory is behind the activity as a background, there is a totally different interection between the machine operator (they often call them machine operators now rather than machinists) and his CNC center.
There can be, but that isn't always the case. Many of my peers moved beyond manual machining, much to their credit. I did not. For my, it was neither a good or bad decision, just a decision, because in my case, I was well respected for the work I did and never was short of work. I also had the finest of customers, with the type of work I preferred. In a sense, I was a total success, although by the measure of many today, I was a complete failure. I never made the kind of money many did, but that was never my objective. Proving my worthiness as a skilled machinist was. It was, by far, more important for me to turn out work that had a 100% acceptance rate than to make unearned money. That credo followed me when I closed the doors on my commercial machines shop and dedicated the balance of my working years refining precious metals. In my mind, it is key to success.
Back to those that migrated towards CNC operations. What that did for them was to enhance their abilities. To the man, we were all well trained on manual machine operations. Those that moved forward were better able to compete in later years. Today, it is doubtful I would be able to make a living, whereas my peers that changed were, and still are, able to do so, even if they have gone well past the normal retirement age, which we all have done.
So, really, I'm agreeing with you, but my question is, what then shall the HSM people do given that they will, in all likelihood, never be able to obtain the experience to which you have referred?
They must do what we all must do. Work in the shop, be it theirs, or a commercial shop. Seek advice from those that have gone before you. You may or may not find it in a book, but there is always a skilled individual that is willing to share his/her knowledge. Then do the work, and do it often. What is important in machining is no different from what is important in learning to play music. Big difference is, one can learn to machine much easier and faster than learning to make music.
I have enjoyed a personal experience in this precise subject. One of the occasional readers of this board, George, who lives about 60 miles from me, is a retired fire fighter. George has been machining for something like 30 years now, and is a self taught machinist, the only tutor he had before I came to know him being another self taught machinist. He has turned to me for advice on many occasions. He admits to having been enlightened in many areas, one of which is in the making of multiple parts. Another is in being exposed to elementary tools that the common man may not ever buy or use, yet they lend themselves to anyone that makes chips. Drill blanks are a good example. George now uses a Kurt vise, and admits that a great deal of the trouble he had previously was due to his vise.
George, being self taught, needed nothing from me in the way of holding tolerances. He is, without a doubt, one of the highest skilled machinists I have known, including those with which I have worked in industry. What he lacked was the little things that one learns from their peers, information that is hard won by being in the trenches.
I am an example of a poorly rounded machinist. I was job specifically trained, so I have never been exposed to such things as gear manufacturing. I understand the fundamentals, but I would be lost in a gear shop. There is no shame in that. We pursue that which holds our interest and try to become the best in that arena. At least that's the objective of those of us that still have a modicum of pride!
Thanks for listening. Remember, we are discussing, not arguing. LOL.
Frankly, I'm surprised you cared to respond to my comments.
Arguing? No need. We are in my arena, and I speak from years of experience. It is my reality, whether it measures up to the reality of others is the question.
When it comes to law, I'll rely on your expertise.
Harold
