Something to worry about

The Junk Drawer is for those Off Topical discussions where we can ask questions of the community that we feel might have the ability to help out.

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mklotz
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Re: Something to worry about

Post by mklotz »

JackF wrote:Marv and Harold,

Ditto Glenn, now maybe you can throw in some lessons on punctuation. :roll: :wink: :D

Jack.

P.S. I had to edit this post twice after sending. :oops:
Punctuation is a big topic. Perhaps you could outline some of your concerns so we can focus on what's giving you problems.

Briefly, it goes like this...

Punctuation is very important for the reader (especially the fast reader). People read in thoughts, not words, and the punctuation provides the clues that outline and segment the thoughts.

Every sentence should end with some punctuation - period, question mark, exclamation point. While informal English allows for the occasional non-sentence, the majority of what you write should consist of recognizable sentences organized into paragraphs.

To keep things simple, forget the semicolon and colon for now. Once you've conquered the worst offenses you can turn your attention to these subtleties.

Even professional writers argue about the use of the comma. They're needed, even in informal English. The subject is way too large to address here (plus I'm no expert). We can deal with individual problems but a comprehensive review is best pursued with a good text on English usage.
Regards, Marv

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Re: Something to worry about

Post by JackF »

Thanks Marv,

My main concern is when to use a semicolon instead of a comma. My english lessons of 50+ years ago are pretty vague nowa days.

Jack.
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Re: Something to worry about

Post by mklotz »

JackF wrote:Thanks Marv,

My main concern is when to use a semicolon instead of a comma. My english lessons of 50+ years ago are pretty vague nowa days.

Jack.
Basically, a semicolon is used in lieu of a conjunction to join two independent clauses. While the semicolon is useful, one seldom sees it in informal English so I'm not going to go into great detail here. For those who want to understand its usage in detail, visit...

http://writing.wisc.edu/Handbook/Semicolons.html

or here...

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon
Regards, Marv

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Re: Something to worry about

Post by Harold_V »

mklotz wrote: Keeping it as a public discussion between you and me
There's an excellent example of something that is misused by the masses. How many would have said "you and I"?
That's one case where I can keep it, for the most part, sorted properly. Must not have dozed in class that day! :-)

Harold
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mklotz
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Re: Something to worry about

Post by mklotz »

Ending a sentence with a preposition...

For a more-or-less complete list of prepositions, see:

http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/prep ... s-list.htm

You may remember your English teacher telling you it was a no-no. Sometimes, in informal English, avoiding it can lead to phrasing that sounds stilted to many Americans.

Wrong: I read it in the book I was referring to.

Correct: I read it in the book to which I was referring.

The correct form sounds a bit stilted and the incorrect form doesn't sound completely terrible. We've got bigger errors than this to track down and stamp out.

But don't let it get away from you. If you ever say anything like:

It's where I'm at.
Where's it at?
etc.

be assured that you will rightly be thought to be a complete idiot.

When in doubt, read your sentence aloud. If you sound like a yokel, rephrase your thought.

Aside:

Winston Churchill, a consummate master of the English language, believed that you should be permitted to terminate a sentence with a preposition. (He had an American mother so this sort of heretical approach to language was not unexpected.) To annoy his critics, he penned the following anecdote...

Little Johnny is lying ill in his upstairs bedroom. He calls down to his mother asking her to come and read to him. When she enters his room, he explodes, "Why did you bring that book I don't like to be read to out of up for?"

Only Winnie could manufacture a sentence that ends in five prepositions.
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Re: Something to worry about

Post by spro »

Marv. I believe there is such a thing as "beating a dead proposition" The proposition being that someone is labeled a "yokel" unless perfect english is used here. Perhaps, I should have typed, "herein used", instead. Then there is beating a dead preposition and a pompous yokel.
If fact, I don't care if some "yokel" comes out of the shop or uses a keyboard with a bad key and doesn't want to flip through a dictionary before posting something. I'm rather fond of such people who candidly report.
There is a great deal of info which is lent to this medium by emphasis' on certain words and local vernacular. This would, no doubt stymie third party conversion to spell check software conversion into exploitive media. So be it.
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Re: Something to worry about

Post by Harold_V »

Spro,
Do keep in mind, Marv is responding at my request. None of his comments should be taken personally, as that is not intended. He is performing a very useful function by helping those of us that prefer to better ourselves. Some may be offended, but others appear to be enjoying the enlightenment.

The "yokel" comment tends to ring true in my case. It is, in fact, one of the reasons that I have reached out. I'm far more windy than my capability----and have suffered for a long time under the impression that it is better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. Well, I'm just damned stupid enough to open my mouth, right or wrong, so I hope to improve. What a wonderful opportunity for me, as well as others, to gain a little of what we should have learned in school, but failed to do so. I'm grateful for Marv for his willingness to lend a hand.

Harold
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Re: Something to worry about

Post by GlennW »

Harold_V wrote: How many would have said "you and I"?
I know of at least one yokel! :oops:

So, it would be "you and me".

Would "he and I" or "she and I" then be correct?
Glenn

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Re: Something to worry about

Post by mklotz »

Glenn Wegman wrote:
Harold_V wrote: How many would have said "you and I"?
I know of at least one yokel! :oops:

So, it would be "you and me".

Would "he and I" or "she and I" then be correct?
We haven't spoken about cases yet so this is an opportunity to introduce the subject. We'll start simply (nb, not simple) and address just two cases, the nominative and the objective.

Nominative pronouns - I, you, he, she, it, we, they

Corresponding objective pronouns - me, you, him, her, it, us, them

The nominative case is used when the word is the subject of the sentence. The objective case, as the name suggests, is used when the word is the object. Object of what, you ask? It can be the object of the action implied by the verb, as in:

I hit him.

or the object of a preposition, as in:

I gave it to him.

Most of the time, when we speak or write our experience causes us to use the correct term naturally. We would never say "I hit he." or "I gave it to he.". Likewise, we wouldn't say "Me hit him." or "Me gave it to him."

Since "between" is a preposition, it takes the objective case, and "between you and me" is correct as would be "between you and him" or "between you and her".

Two remarks here...

"Between you and I" is light-years away from the worst writing error I've seen on the web. If this is the worst error you make, count yourself lucky.

There are other cases - genitive, dative, ablative, etc. Many languages use special endings on *all* nouns to explicitly denote these cases. This can make learning languages like German and Latin a real trial. OTOH, learning such languages quickly gives one a comprehensive understanding of English grammar.
Regards, Marv

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Re: Something to worry about

Post by mklotz »

Two more pet peeves...

The whole world seems to want to spell 'lose' as 'loose'. This confounds me. Many poor spellers attempt to spell phonetically, a tactic sure to lead to disaster in English.

Pronounce the following sequence of words aloud...

goose, moose, noose

Now, pronounce aloud the word 'loose'. Does it sound anything like the word that is the opposite of 'win'?

Be especially careful when you write either of these words. In fact, after doing a spell check (which won't catch a misuse of these words), it may be worth using the search function to find every occurrence of these words and then inspecting the usage for errors.

The second peeve concerns the confusion of double consonants. English is chock-a-block full of words like 'planing' and 'planning' that differ only by a doubling of the consonant yet have completely different meanings. Worse, many of these troublesome pairs are used in the metalworking fields.

How many times have I read that someone needs help in scrapping his surface plate? No, it's not that it's too heavy to lift into the trash bin. And people are forever having trouble taping a hole. How hard is it to put a little duct (not duck) tape over a hole? Incorrectly placed holes may need to be filled, not filed - it's hard to hide a hole with a file.

It's not just double consonants that cause problems. How many times have I seen someone describe the process of turning an O-ring 'grove' on his lathe. A simple pronunciation check will prove that it should be 'groove' and not 'grove'.

Again, pay special attention to words such as these when you do your proofreading.
Regards, Marv

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Re: Something to worry about

Post by steamin10 »

KIn you esplain to my kenfolk, that I losed the hole thing in the whole out back, anits not my falt? :roll: From a Vocal Yokel. He lost his portable holes too.

Ok, :lol: Points well taken. I have fun with it, even tho I get tangled up in bad sentence structure trying to get my thoughts out. I make no claims here, as the ,-teh- thing pops out far to often for me. (tho) isn't a word, but I use it all the time.

Is there a spell check available on these threads? I am not aware of any method here, and have been wondering. Myself, I am painfully aware of my flaws, and would use it.

Is it always understood, that a stoop, is not a porch, and a Bozo is an obvious clown, not a kids big marble? An Einstein is brilliant, but never understood, in confidence, method or mode, but is always somehow right?

Just wanting to know if we have common references here.
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Re: Something to worry about

Post by Harold_V »

steamin10 wrote:Is there a spell check available on these threads? I am not aware of any method here, and have been wondering.
I touch type, but my typing is fraught with errors. They are, primarily, due to dyslexia, often typing a three letter word in reverse. As a result, I have always relied on spell check, and rarely post without its use. I'm fortunate to be able to spell reasonably well---although I recall being somewhat better as a young person.

(Spell check) not near, you say?

How so?

Do you send email?

I do.

Before my comments are posted, I copy and paste to an email, which permits spell check. I then copy and paste the corrected version to my post. On rare occasion, I find no spelling errors. It's almost always fruitful to have used the function, and it helps keep me from looking like I just fell off a turnip wagon. It does little to correct for my poor choice in words, however. That's where Marv is likely to be a great influence.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
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