Infernal Combustion Engines

This Forum is dedicated to the Hobbyist I.C. (Internal Combustion) Engine Community.

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Carl
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2003 5:53 pm
Location: Lake Stevens, WA

Re: Here is Coles Power Models link

Post by Carl »

Be aware that things are moving very "slowly" at Coles. I bought several booklets from them at their PRIME display in Sept. There were 2 that were sold out, but he was to mail them to me when he got home. In November, I contacted him .. he said they had been mailed, but he was sending a second order right out (first lie). Then a couple of weeks later I contacted him again and he said he was putting a tracer on the second shipment and was sending another shipment that day (second lie). After my persistent emails, he finally called me and said he couldn't figure out which ones I had coming to me ... and if I could tell him, he would get them out that day. (Third lie) I had to look up the information and sent him an email that afternoon, but it took another 10 days before they were shipped, on January 10th!!! I didn't mind the delays as much as I did the lies! I really don't think Martin is dishonest, but is a bit "snowed under." To his credit he asked me to pick out a third booklet and he sent it for free because of their screwup.
Carl
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Harold_V
Posts: 20227
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Here is Coles Power Models link

Post by Harold_V »

Carl,
Like you, I don't mind when someone is buried and running behind, but providing "lip service" to a customer, for me, kills any desire to do business with an entity, be they a business or just a hobbyist.

Some people don't seem to grasp the importance of their credibility, which, for me, is lost immediately when I am not dealt with in honesty. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I am willing to live with almost any scenario so long as I know and understand the game plan.

Lets hope this gentleman gets his act together and learns from the experiences so he does better. Otherwise I see a dim future for his operation. Not many of us enjoy being abused.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
oheider

Re: Principle of operation

Post by oheider »

Interesting Engine!

Have you ever done any calculations on the "connecting rods" (links)? I would think the tensile forces would be the highest.
I don't have any idea if the links scaled would be large enough. I did some elementry calcs on standard connection rods and pistons a number of years back and was amazed at the forces.

Most of the mechanical side of things were invented in the 30's. The "Fircone" J.A.P. would turn 10,500 ! Better metallurgy and manufacturing methods are starting to prove the merit of the original designs. The conical camshaft (sliding the camshaft lengthwize to allow the valve timing to vary with rpm), which has been used by Honda was invented around that time.

My question was posed for someone who was building an engine, not a scale model of an existing engine. Something that will run and a scale model are radically different things. Maybe the best route for us beginners would be to just build an engine that would run instead of a scale model.

Otto
Doug_C
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 6:48 pm

Re: Principle of operation

Post by Doug_C »

Hi Otto,

My suggestion was from a success standpoint of building an engine as a beginner, starting with a proven design. Designing or scaling an engine from scratch based on what one has on hand would be fun, but not realistic for a first project. Best to have a print and proven concept with basic skills to see it through. Of course all told, it would depend on what experience and motivation the builder has to offer the project. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/wink.gif"%20alt="[/img]

I am not so sure for the design of the links in the Caminez that they take all that much force. I think you are correct in stating tension as the main source of stress. There could be some compression loads as well. All the power stroke forces are places on the roller bearing in the piston riding the bowtie. There would be pulling forces produced on the links during the intake stroke. The intimidating ratio I see is that the Bore is 1.46 vs the link width at .157 spread technically over the 4 links to each piston. I have not done any cross-sectional analysis to see what strength could be there for any given material. For the most part this was an exercise to check the feasibility. I still need to draw up the side view for clearances in what I can use for link thickness.

I will look into the Fircone. Have you found any web documentation or history? I did not find anything for now. I did see another cam type engine photo at PRIME in Eugene, Or. A couple years ago. I can't recall the name. I think is was made in the states, but had an Italian or French sounding name. Something like Morrocetti or some such thing. It was never a production engine as far as I know. It did have some bizzar monkey motion going on inside. I think it was an 8 cylinder radial. I know I have the photo on video tape.....somewhere. [img]/ubb/images/graemlins/grin.gif"%20alt="[/img]

DC
Carl
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2003 5:53 pm
Location: Lake Stevens, WA

Re: Principle of operation

Post by Carl »

Yes, if he had called me and just said he was "snowed" it would have been better than lying to me. He said he put a "tracer" on it .... well as the recipient, I should have heard something ... but I never got an inquiry which tells me that was another part of the lie.
We need Coles. It was great to see him show up at PRIME this year. The old Coles was "slowing down". Half of every order was "back ordered". They were having problems getting people to make their oilers, grease cups etc. Betty was trying to retire and whoever it was (next generation) in the family who tried to take it over apparently failed miserably, so I'm sure that Martin Becker took over a business that had really fallen behind in recent years.
I was hoping we would see a great improvement, and realize that it takes time. I chatted with him at length at PRIME and he was telling me about their increases in inventory and the plans they had to expand it from what they had carried in years past. I wish them well, but I still don't like to be lied to.
Carl
PS, I'm up north of you a ways ... in Lake Stevens
Allen_from_CHT
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:09 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Upshur Engines

Post by Allen_from_CHT »

Dick Upshur is a real nice fellow. His engines are straightforward, simple, and generally good runners. I think the plans were printed in Modeltec a few years back--Last I heard he was allowing Peters to sell the plans flyweels and gears again.
oheider

Re: Principle of operation

Post by oheider »

Sorry Bout Being Unable to Reply
The fircone JAP engine was a flathead mororcycle engine with the head and the cylinder cast in one piece, the holes where the valves were installed tended to be hotspots. Extra cooling fins were added to the plugs to keep the areas cool. Came from Motorcycle Engineering by Irving I think. Book has been out of print forever, I think the Clymer group brought it back in the 70's. I have no Idea if it is available.


Otto
Doug_C
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 6:48 pm

Re: Principle of operation

Post by Doug_C »

Well Hello Otto,

Thanks for the reply.

I just happen to catch another post put up by John Stevenson. Is there a connection to the JAP that you mention?


J.A.P. Flywheels

This might help track down more info if John Arthur Prestwick was the originator.

DC
captainkirk

Re: Internal Combustion Engines

Post by captainkirk »

Greetings,
I to am interested in the "Cam" design engines particularly the Caminez one, But any information would be of great help in designing and actually building one. I have exhausted most of the easy links on the web, but still no real extensive "how to build type information" is there any current work being done on building one? If so please get in touch with me to exchange information.
Thanks
capt.kirk@erols.com
Doug_C
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 6:48 pm

Re: Internal Combustion Engines

Post by Doug_C »

Good to hear from you Kirk,

I will email you directly.

DC
John_Stevenson
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2002 9:51 am
Location: Nottingham, England.

Re: Principle of operation

Post by John_Stevenson »

Otto,
I feel there is some contradiction here with the JAP fircone engine.
This was a between the war years engine and materials and quality would be poor.
The stated revs at 10,500 would be impossible to reach at this point in time, especially by a long stroke side valve engine.
I have been involved with vintage JAP engines in a limited way for a few years and the build up is crude to say the least.
I don't have any figures but I would be amazed if one of these was capable of managing more than 4,500 rpm.

Somewhere I have the Motorcycle engineering book By Irving and also Modern Motorcycle engines published by the Motor Cycle magazine here in the UK.
When I get a moment I'll look them out to see if there are further mentions.

John S.
oheider

Re: Principle of operation

Post by oheider »

My information comes from my (sometimes) hazy recollection, but the engine (the fircone JAP) has stuck in my mind for a long time. The high rpm figure really impressed me.
I lost a lot of books and other printed material in the Great Flood of '96 and I am sure that Motorcycle Engineering was one of them. I never was that impressed with any of the flathead engines I have seen. They always looked very crude to me. My Dad had an old ford flathead for a farm truck (pick up) and it was fun to ride in because you could see the road through the floorboards.
I think the reference to the fircone in my mind was based on not a lot of totally new stuff being made today but a century of refining the whole engine has produced enghines with an astonishing amount of horse power coupled with durability. Of course the materials and the methods of manufacture have improved enormously.

Otto
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