what is your take on this could it work or not ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tk7VoXBo2E cold vapor engine
could this be true ?
Re: could this be true ?
Sure. Looks like a rudimentary vapor tank fuel supply. Not terribly uncommon in model engines. See plans here:
http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/Webp ... ameset.htm
Doesn't surprise me that you can get a full sized engine to run on it. It would not be flexible enough to drive on it, or be a very efficient fuel metering device. I'm thinking that fuel mixture would be determined by things like surface area, headroom in the tank, air flow speed, air orifice size, etc.
http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/Webp ... ameset.htm
Doesn't surprise me that you can get a full sized engine to run on it. It would not be flexible enough to drive on it, or be a very efficient fuel metering device. I'm thinking that fuel mixture would be determined by things like surface area, headroom in the tank, air flow speed, air orifice size, etc.
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stevenacarter77
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:03 am
Re: could this be true ?
sure looks like it worked on that 4cyl ok, if you listen real close you can hear the motor rev up and down when he plays with the carb throttle lever. in studying this video i think the throttle is the regulator for the engine in that it only allows a certain amount of vacuum to the fuel tank, where it pulls just the right amount of fuel/air mix for it to run as smooth as it was. WOW i just thought, by pulling only a vapor it might get outstanding MPG because Charles Pouge made a dry vapor carb that got over 200 mpg on a ford 8 cyl in the 1930's. those boy in the video might really be on to something!!!
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steamin10
- Posts: 6712
- Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:52 pm
- Location: NW Indiana. Close to Lake Michigan S. tip
Re: could this be true ?
No, nothing new here.
Look at a model T wick carburator, and early turn of the century designs that used sponges and wicks. The design flaw is storing a saturated vapor, that did not work well in cold weather, and flooded in hot weather when fuel would boil in the enginehouse, and a backfire really meant a possible fire on the wick or sponge. Blowers on race engines have blowout doors that release the energy of the compressing fuel charge drawn from the carburator above. It doesnt always work, making blower straps a safty item.
The venturi carburator got past the large amount of explosive vapor available.
Of interest to me, was the ultrasonic craburator, where the metered fuel was broken up by a vibrating plate, to be inhaled into the engine. At the time, it posted some good numbers, but disappeared. I dont know why.
In those days of high compressions and premium fuel numbers, everybody who raced knew injection was most efficient, for race cars, adjustable boost for turbocharging. Aircraft were turbocharged engines for higher altitude performance, developed in the 40's. Then and now Indy style cars can change the waste gate settings, and boost to get more HP on the fly. Cylinder pressure is the start, but not the finish. Remember the smog motors of 8.5-1/ they were dogs compared tothe Olds Cutlass I drove with the 10-1 factory setup. Slight mods made more pressure but required premium fuel, only .04 a gallon more. I loved it. (then I got married and got a Pinto, should have been a Veedub.)
What is missed is the fact that lean burns can melt pistons, and many engine power designs on the cooling effect of fuel sprays to add to the HP output, and physically keeping the piston tops cooler than a lean burn. This interaction is seen on fuel dragsters, that run rich and dont perform, or run fast, and eat the pistons in a quarter mile. Very delicate balance with hot fuels.
It is chemistry, and thermodynamics, divided by mechanics. C+T/Mech1 . Like E=mc2 there is more to it than meets the eye.
(just kidding with the equation).
Look at a model T wick carburator, and early turn of the century designs that used sponges and wicks. The design flaw is storing a saturated vapor, that did not work well in cold weather, and flooded in hot weather when fuel would boil in the enginehouse, and a backfire really meant a possible fire on the wick or sponge. Blowers on race engines have blowout doors that release the energy of the compressing fuel charge drawn from the carburator above. It doesnt always work, making blower straps a safty item.
The venturi carburator got past the large amount of explosive vapor available.
Of interest to me, was the ultrasonic craburator, where the metered fuel was broken up by a vibrating plate, to be inhaled into the engine. At the time, it posted some good numbers, but disappeared. I dont know why.
In those days of high compressions and premium fuel numbers, everybody who raced knew injection was most efficient, for race cars, adjustable boost for turbocharging. Aircraft were turbocharged engines for higher altitude performance, developed in the 40's. Then and now Indy style cars can change the waste gate settings, and boost to get more HP on the fly. Cylinder pressure is the start, but not the finish. Remember the smog motors of 8.5-1/ they were dogs compared tothe Olds Cutlass I drove with the 10-1 factory setup. Slight mods made more pressure but required premium fuel, only .04 a gallon more. I loved it. (then I got married and got a Pinto, should have been a Veedub.)
What is missed is the fact that lean burns can melt pistons, and many engine power designs on the cooling effect of fuel sprays to add to the HP output, and physically keeping the piston tops cooler than a lean burn. This interaction is seen on fuel dragsters, that run rich and dont perform, or run fast, and eat the pistons in a quarter mile. Very delicate balance with hot fuels.
It is chemistry, and thermodynamics, divided by mechanics. C+T/Mech1 . Like E=mc2 there is more to it than meets the eye.
(just kidding with the equation).Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
Re: could this be true ?
I'm not so sure of this....for a few reasons:
No.1 Acceleration...An engine run on propane for example does not accelerate as this example does and the gasoline cold vapor would have very similar properties to LPG or LNG which can not enrichen the fuel/air ratio enough to accelerate rapidly.
No. 2 The statiometric ratio of fuel/air is a fixed physical amount for an internal combustion engine whether it is burning gasoline, propane, or alcohol. Boiling or vaporizing the fuel does not change the mixture ratio that will enable combustion with enough power to run an engine so, even if this engine were running on fumes (which I seriously doubt) it will not run for the length of time and only use the minute amount that is shown in the video.
No.3 This is a venturi type carburetor and will by nature cause a refrigeration effect through the venturi that will condense the vapors back to a liquid and then it would be re-atomized by the turbulence through and beyond the same venturi. The fuel/air would still need to be a ratio of approximately 14.7 to 1. The amount of fuel used appears to be approximately 10,000 to 1 and would not run the engine. The float type carburetor appears to have a normal fuel line and accelerator pump and the inlet air is pulled through the plastic bottle with inlet tubing into the bottle located below the level of fuel which is creating the bubbles. It could just as well be water.
No.4 - As you all know, youtube beacons to those who wish to be seen even if they break a leg being doing it.
No.5 - There never has been and never will be something for nothing!
Bill C.
No.1 Acceleration...An engine run on propane for example does not accelerate as this example does and the gasoline cold vapor would have very similar properties to LPG or LNG which can not enrichen the fuel/air ratio enough to accelerate rapidly.
No. 2 The statiometric ratio of fuel/air is a fixed physical amount for an internal combustion engine whether it is burning gasoline, propane, or alcohol. Boiling or vaporizing the fuel does not change the mixture ratio that will enable combustion with enough power to run an engine so, even if this engine were running on fumes (which I seriously doubt) it will not run for the length of time and only use the minute amount that is shown in the video.
No.3 This is a venturi type carburetor and will by nature cause a refrigeration effect through the venturi that will condense the vapors back to a liquid and then it would be re-atomized by the turbulence through and beyond the same venturi. The fuel/air would still need to be a ratio of approximately 14.7 to 1. The amount of fuel used appears to be approximately 10,000 to 1 and would not run the engine. The float type carburetor appears to have a normal fuel line and accelerator pump and the inlet air is pulled through the plastic bottle with inlet tubing into the bottle located below the level of fuel which is creating the bubbles. It could just as well be water.
No.4 - As you all know, youtube beacons to those who wish to be seen even if they break a leg being doing it.
No.5 - There never has been and never will be something for nothing!
Bill C.
Re: could this be true ?
BCClem,
I was confused by the term "statiometric" in your post. Di dyou mean Stoichometric?
stoichiometric mixture fraction The relative amounts of oxygen enrichment and fuel dilution can be quantified by the stoichiometric mixture fraction, Zst, defined as Zst=(1+YF,0WOvO/YO,0WFvF)−1, where YF,0 and YO,0 represent the fuel and oxidizer mass fractions at the inlet, WF and WO are the species molecular weights, and vF and vO are the fuel and oxygen stoichiometric coefficients, respectively.
Dave C.
I was confused by the term "statiometric" in your post. Di dyou mean Stoichometric?
stoichiometric mixture fraction The relative amounts of oxygen enrichment and fuel dilution can be quantified by the stoichiometric mixture fraction, Zst, defined as Zst=(1+YF,0WOvO/YO,0WFvF)−1, where YF,0 and YO,0 represent the fuel and oxidizer mass fractions at the inlet, WF and WO are the species molecular weights, and vF and vO are the fuel and oxygen stoichiometric coefficients, respectively.
Dave C.
I learn something new every day! Problem is I forget two.
Re: could this be true ?
Yep! My spell check is not so technical - and I'm just skeptikal, skeptipal, scheptacle.....you know!
Bill C.
Bill C.
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steamin10
- Posts: 6712
- Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:52 pm
- Location: NW Indiana. Close to Lake Michigan S. tip
Re: could this be true ?
My time with race engines showed me that Venturi carbs are not nearly as stable for fuel mix as one would think. They have a nasty habit of leaning out in low flow, and high end flow situations. That is why there are fuel enrichments for idle and transition pumps to carry through the lean out periods when flow changes, and the fuel physically does not move fast enough to maintain the needed mix. That is why supersmall engines inhale a vapor mix, that is already generated and easy to control.
These facts will get into your wallet, when you play with Nitrous, or water/propane injection on diesels. You can run past the sweet spot of power mix, and get HOT by running lean. Nitrous is the joke here because of the pressure and dump nozzles being sized for one flow. High rpm will melt things very fast, if it leans out.
Like any incarnation of the complex motions of engines and design tweeks, it is science with a lot of opinion and a little witchcraft.
I remember the Hilborn injection systems, that were tough to set up, but worked, if you got the air temp, humidity, angle of the sun, and spacial alignments right, you could fly. Or not, as often happened.
Beyond my simple experiences, I dont do thermaldynamics, or research to eat up engines. I have trouble trying to fix the neighbors 18 HP briggs, that scored the cylinders. (too hot, air vents plugged with grass, DOA). Briggs use volumetric carburation. Fancy term for venturi. Low HP, compression, etc. Melt it? Ya , you bet.
These facts will get into your wallet, when you play with Nitrous, or water/propane injection on diesels. You can run past the sweet spot of power mix, and get HOT by running lean. Nitrous is the joke here because of the pressure and dump nozzles being sized for one flow. High rpm will melt things very fast, if it leans out.
Like any incarnation of the complex motions of engines and design tweeks, it is science with a lot of opinion and a little witchcraft.
I remember the Hilborn injection systems, that were tough to set up, but worked, if you got the air temp, humidity, angle of the sun, and spacial alignments right, you could fly. Or not, as often happened.
Beyond my simple experiences, I dont do thermaldynamics, or research to eat up engines. I have trouble trying to fix the neighbors 18 HP briggs, that scored the cylinders. (too hot, air vents plugged with grass, DOA). Briggs use volumetric carburation. Fancy term for venturi. Low HP, compression, etc. Melt it? Ya , you bet.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
It is not getting caught in the rain, its learning to dance in it. People saying good morning, should have to prove it.