New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

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Torch
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Location: Muskoka

Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by Torch »

Collets are so simple even the Chinese can't seem to screw them up too badly, so you are probably fine with whatever inexpensive set you can find. Make sure the drawbar thread is the same as your drawbar (the set you showed is 3/8"). You don't necessarily need a set, what you need is a collet for each shank size you will use. For example, you can get a 1/2" endmill in a 1/2" shank or a 7/16" shank. If you pick specific shank sizes that you will use, you only need those collets. That said, collets are generally cheaper than endmills in the long run, so a set of collets may let you take advantage of better deals on endmills in the future. You probably won't be using larger endmills with that machine, so that set is probably appropriate to your needs.

You might consider some endmill holders instead of, or in addition to, the collets. The mill will be less rigid the further you have to extend the quill, and on a short piece, the quill probably won't reach as low as the vise jaws even with the column lowered as far as it will go. A collet positions the endmill at the quill, an endmill holder extends the mill a bit further below the quill, somewhat like a drill chuck does for a drill bit. Also, the endmill holder is considerably smaller in diameter than the quill, allowing you to get in close to work held in a spin index or similar fixture where the quill might get in the way. Personally, I use a collet in the quill only rarely and only when the work is too tall to fit even with the column fully raised. (BTW: make sure the column is locked down VERY TIGHT, so it cannot rotate under the force applied by the endmill when cutting. Don't Ask Me How I Know This(TM)

Endmills do come in sets, however those sets tend to be cheaper Chinese endmills. There is where quality makes a difference. Not so much with softer metals like aluminium perhaps, but certainly with harder steels. It wouldn't hurt to look for a set of cheaper endmills for a starter (bearing in mind that the collets you are looking at only go up to 1/2" in size, so sets with larger endmills are not much use to you with those collets). For now, I think your "go to" endmill will be 1/2", as the largest shank in your range. Larger shank = stronger, stiffer, better finish, etc. It also doesn't have to spin as fast as a smaller diameter endmill and your machine is limited in rotational speed. Once you get into milling harder materials, you will definitely appreciate a good quality M42 (8% cobalt) HSS (High Speed Steel. Not as brittle as carbide (which needs higher speeds anyway) it is tough and will hold an edge much better than ordinary HSS. M2 might also be a good bet for you. It won't hold and edge quite as well as a 5% or 8%, but is an economical compromise and might handle hand-cranking a bit better without breaking.

There are two common styles of endmills in those smaller sizes: 2 flute and 4 flute. 2 flute are also sometimes called "slot mills" (particularly by the English) as they are more appropriate for cutting a slot (you can investigate why at your leisure). You can also plunge with them, although I still like to pre-drill a hole first. 4-flute endmills will generally cut smoother and/or faster, but are problematic for cutting slots and require more power. There are also 3-flute mills that are supposed to be capable of slotting but they seem harder to find and more expensive so I've never personally used one.

One thing to remember about endmills: they are not readily resharpenable without some specialized accessories or a tool grinder. They will dull with use and will break with misuse, so consider them disposable. Have some extras on hand in case you need a fresh one in mid-project. DAMHIKTTM. :(

For lathe bits, I definitely recommend cobalt HSS bits. You generally get them individually and you custom sharpen them to whatever shape you need. Which implies a bench grinder, with an appropriate wheel. Harold has written an encyclopedic article on the subject of grinding wheels so I won't bother trying to repeat that here. Look in the Resource Library forum for his words of wisdom. I would suggest looking at something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221183956858
to get you started. You can buy cheaper bits in regular or M42 HSS, etc. and they will suffice quite well for aluminium but dull more readily in steels and are less forgiving of overheating (a mistake beginners are likely to make! DAMHIKT(tm))

The other option of course is carbide inserts. However, while it is very hard it is also very brittle, needs more speed and power and so forth. There is a lot of debate about carbide vs HSS but I think for that machine, your best bet is to stick with HSS.

One other thing you will want for the lathe is a centre drill or two. These are a very short drill bit (usually double-ended) with a short, small diameter pilot and then a 60° angled section to match your 60° lathe centres. They usually come in 5 sizes but the small ones break the pilot tip off if you are not careful. I'd get a #3 or #4 (1/4" or 5/16") for now unless you plan to do some fine work. However, they do make an excellent choice for starting a drilled hole on the mill without wandering, which can be a good argument for having a full set.


Now, bear in mind that I have just touched on the very basics. You can get ball mills with a rounded end for cutting coves, 45° and 60° dovetail bits, roundover bits, etc. for the mill as needs dictate. If you are working with aluminium, you can get away with using a carbide router bit in the mill occasionally. They are not really the ideal grade of carbide or sharpening angle, but they will work in a pinch and are readily available everywhere. You can get boring bars, cut-off blades, knurling tools, etc. for your lathe work. Make a list so that the next time someone asks what you want for Christmas, you will be ready for the question. Trust me, the list is endless!!! :lol:
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shutter
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Location: Minnesota

Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by shutter »

First things first. I do have a 3/8 drawbar. I found out the drill chuck had been in there awhile. Spent my whole lunch hour fighting with it. I got it out. All is good.

Could you link me to some endmill holders? So these are attached by the drawbar?

Here is what I have so far.

I have to order my tool post

I have to order endmill holders.

I have to order cutters for lathe

I have to order endmills for the holders

I have to order a couple center drills.

and a mt2 dead, or live center for the lathe.

And collet set (optional)

Look my list over please.

I'm already having fun, and I haven't even started yet. :D
Torch
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Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:58 am
Location: Muskoka

Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by Torch »

Yes, endmill holders are retained by the drawbar. A quick Google produced these sets at Little Machine Shop -- a company with a pretty good reputation: http://littlemachineshop.com/products/p ... ll+Holders. $75

Somewhat cheaper at Shars -- and I've been satisfied with everything I've bought from Shars (who do business as "Discount Machine Shop" on ebay -- sometimes their eBay prices are a bit better than their website prices): http://www.shars.com/products/view/166/ ... _31658quot. $50

Grizzly doesn't sell a set, per se, but if you add up the individual prices for the same 4 holders as the above they end up in the middle at $63: http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2013/Main/705

That's just 3 options, I'm sure there are many more. Shipping and taxes to your location may be the determining factors in the final price.

Anyway, your list is probably a good start on the basic tooling. Assuming you have access to a bench grinder to shape the lathe bits, of course. (BTW: watch the "Tubal Cain" videos on Youtube about sharpening lathe bits. An excellent series).

However, don't forget the metrology -- measuring instruments. At a minimum, purchase a set of Chinese 6" digital calipers. When using them bear in mind that they will indicate in tenths of thousandths of an inch, but are really only reliable +/- 1 or 2 thousandths of an inch. Good for starting out with, but not so much for high-precision work. For the sake of comparison, most people can just feel a 0.001" bump with a fingertip.

In order of what I consider importance the next few things you should consider are: Second, either a dial test indicator (DTI) or dial indicator and magnetic base. You will need them for various adjustments of your machine. Shars/Discount Machine sell some serviceable units for reasonable prices. Perhaps not quite as smooth as a Starrett, but serviceable. A magnetic base is an indispensable accessory for a DTI/DI. Third, a set of 1/8" x 6" parallels. Fourth (for milling) a machinist's square or 1-2-3 block and a sharp scribe. And preferably a spray can of machinist's dye. You use those for laying out your planned cuts. The machinist's square is best for laying out, but the 1-2-3 blocks can also be used as a support when clamping things down, so they have the advantage of versatility until you can afford both.

Finally, you might want some sort of cutting fluid to cool and lubricate your tools during the cutting. It makes them last longer and helps with the finish. For aluminium, even a can of WD-40 will help. Kerosene/Diesel fuel is also a popular choice. Not necessarily as good as a purpose-made product, but adequate and better than cutting dry. For steel, there are a huge range of choices from water-based to oil based. All have their adherents as all have certain advantages. My PERSONAL choice for an all-round cutting fluid is dark sulpher-based cutting oil. It's stinky. It's hard to find. It's expensive. It performs second to none in the widest range of applications. My second choice (if I didn't have a 5 gallon pail of the good stuff :lol:) would be the pipe cutting oil available at any plumbing shop or even Home Despot, and comes in 1 qt. bottles.

Many guys just lay some on with an acid brush (another plumbing tool -- kind of a small paintbrush with a metal tube for a handle). I prefer a 1 pint oil can with a thumb lever. I'm sure I use more oil than the guys with the brush, but I don't think the brush significantly increases tool life. Just a gut feeling, no scientific study to prove it, but as an old pipefitter, I know that dies flooded in cutting oil lasted a heck of a lot longer than dies that were lightly coated in oil. Your mileage may vary and you can have a lot of fun going through posts on the subject in the general forum to see all the other options and opinions.

While you are waiting for your tooling to arrive, google the US navy and US army publications on machining. They are a decent introduction to many of the concepts. And watch Tubalcain's other videos on Youtube. The man is an ex-shop teacher who has a knack for making things clear to beginners.
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shutter
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Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by shutter »

Torch, is it normal for my tailstock wheel to move away from the holder back about 1/4 inch? I looked in my instruction book, it said it's a mt2 taper. So I took my drill chuck out. I placed it in the tailstock holder but it won't go back to even touch the end inside? Regardless if the handwheel is turned in all the way or out. Confused.
sch
Posts: 277
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Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by sch »

Some tailstocks require an MT mount with a tang, rather than the MT with a threaded retention for drawbar. The tang fits into a slot inside the tailstock
which provides some degree of protection against the MT holder rotating in the tailstock, but not always. If your drawbar threaded MT hits the tang
slot before bottoming out then it won't work. Fortunately tanged MT2 holders are dirt cheap, and you might as well get a drill chuck with the MT2 tanged
holder mounted, you will use it a lot. HSS steel tool bits in 1/4 or 3/8" sq size can be had for a few $ each, buy half a dozen as you will want to grind
them to different shapes which you then touch up. Don't worry about overheating them grinding, they hold their hardness to well above 1000F. OTOH
there are those who feel that water dip to cool while grinding can result in microfractures weakening the tool. CDCOtools.com has AXA basic tool holders
for $8-10 which fit the chinese origin QCTH ok, but not necessarily Indian made QCTH.

For a pix of a tanged MT look at CDCOtool.com under lathe tools at the morse taper sleeve, it has a tang. Search at cdco for drill chucks and they have
several, and further down the page is the MT2 drillchuck tanged mount ($5). Just make sure you match the J# taper on the mount to the drill chuck J taper.
Torch
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Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by Torch »

Do you mean that the wheel itself is moving in and out from the casting? That is not normal. The barrel (514 in the parts diagram) should extend and retract as the handwheel is cranked, but the handwheel itself should remain approximately in the same position. Make sure the lock lever (519/521) is released to allow the barrel to move. In the parts diagram, it looks like screw 510 locks the sleeve 522 in position to prevent the handwheel from moving in and out. Perhaps a previous owner tried to force it with the barrel locked? I'd get this sorted out before trying anything else. You may need to tighten that screw, or you may need to disassemble the tailstock to locate any damaged parts.

sch has a point about tanged tapers. However, on tanged barrels, there is usually a slot in the side at the end of the tang for inserting a wedge to eject the shank from the barrel. Looking at the manual for your machine, the supplied tailstock centre does not have a tang, nor can I see the slot in any images. That's no proof it's not there -- after all, the manual did not show the gib lock screws that you found either. Sometimes the manuals do not reflect production run changes, especially with Chinese machines. Or the manual could in fact be representing a later design than your used machine.

However, on lathe tailstocks, it is common for the barrel to "autoeject" the shank. A short bolt is threaded into the drawbar threads before the shank is inserted and when the barrel is with drawn the last 1/4" or so, the bolt head hits the end of the threaded shaft (517), preventing the shank from moving further while the barrel is withdrawn from around the shank. Very convenient.

I'd look inside the barrel if possible, or if not, feel around with a long thin screwdriver or similar. If there is a slot for a tang or perhaps a short 3/8" bolt that vibrated out of the shank on the last owner, you might be able to detect it.
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shutter
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Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by shutter »

Thanks go out to both of you. I will have a look at the tailstock later today. I will take pictures of what I find.
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shutter
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Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by shutter »

Took out the two pointed locks on the back. Removed the locking mechanism. This is how much movement I have.
Attachments
tail 1.JPG
tail 2.JPG
tail 3.JPG
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shutter
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Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by shutter »

The part is the middle does move. But like I said only the same movement you see in the wheel, closed, and open.
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shutter
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Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by shutter »

How do I go about disassembly? punch out part 517 backwards and then go for 514 out the front?
Torch
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Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by Torch »

514 (what I would call the tailstock barrel, but they call the "core shaft") should move freely, in and out as you rotate the hand wheel. You should be able to crank it right out to the end of the threads of the lead screw (517) and pull it the rest of the way out by hand. There is a t-shaped key in the bottom of the casting that keeps the barrel from rotating when the handwheel is cranked. Your lead screw (517) is retained a little bit differently than mine (mine's the larger machine), but looking at the pictures, 517 should just pull out once the barrel and screw 510 are removed. Neither should need to be "punched" out, and in fact, I fear applying such force would only damage the threads. Oh, and it may be a left-handed thread -- mine is. If so, standing at the tailstock facing the chuck, rotating the handle clockwise extends the barrel.

All that said, there is some sort of pin (518) shown on the diagram that has no clear purpose that I can see. I wonder if it is in a position to prevent either the barrel or the lead screw from being pulled out? You will have to look closely at that and see if you can figure out what it's for and if it is a roll pin that must be punched out.
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shutter
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Re: New guy needs some help. Maybe alot of help...

Post by shutter »

I can only crank either direction about 1/4 inch. Well it must be stuck in there. The 518 pin is just for the little draw bar to rest on when you take the pressure off. I will try some light pulling and see what happens. I will update later.
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