Allen Models - running boards back in stock

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Harlock
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Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by Harlock »

Running boards for the Mogul, Consolidation and Ten Wheeler are back in stock after a long hiatus. These are unusually long aluminum castings and it took a while to find a suitable foundry. Aluminum is used to preserve the diamond plate detail. Note that on the site the mogul boards are shown for the ten wheeler until we get some shots of the ten wheeler boards, which are a bit longer than the mogul otherwise same.

The boards are available in section 11 for each of the locomotives mentioned above, at https://allenmodels.com.

-Mike
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Harlock
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Re: Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by Harlock »

Also, a quick followup note, the Mogul running board is used on the 0-4-0 and 2-4-0 (cut short) and the ten wheeler running board is used on the American. Cab sections on these locomotives have now been updated to reflect this.
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NP317
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Re: Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by NP317 »

Well done. Those castings are difficult to make successfully.

Different subject:
Are the drawings for the Mogul, American, and Ten Wheeler being updated to correct the Link hanger pivot location?
It needs backset for equal operation in forward and reverse.

Drawing attached showing this correction.
I apologize to the originator of this drawing, as I don't have your name to provide credit where due.
~RussN
stephenson link-Model.pdf
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SZuiderveen
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Re: Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by SZuiderveen »

That would be Bill Shield’s drawing.

Steve
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NP317
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Re: Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by NP317 »

Thank You SZ.

And Thank You Bill, for that drawing.
~RN
Mike Walsh
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Re: Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by Mike Walsh »

How can I learn about this change? It will not be long before I am ready to button up my frame and start working on valve gear.

Mike
Steve Alley
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Re: Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by Steve Alley »

This is off the subject of the Running Boards , but its important. I have been in contact with Mike Massee, to have a spot on Allen Models web site for down loading of changes. These will have a listing of topics and page or drawing number changes. Its important to me and the respect of the persons that come up with these changes that will enhance Allen Model engines. We feel that once this is in place and time aloud for the real changes to the drawing set can happen. We know of other things that need changing and remove fractions to decimals is one big one. I have been in contact with others and wish for all that have insight to these things to PM me or e-mail me.
So if it works out there is a link on the Web site that will take you to a list of changes. Also there will be other info beside this on this site. How to type of things. How to Machine difficult parts to hold and how to get started on machining these castings. If all goes as plan I hope to have more helpful information there too.
Thank You
Steve
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Re: Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by Harold_V »

Not wanting to make decisions for you, but you may wish to reconsider replacing fractions with decimals. All depends on how you tolerance your drawings, of course.

Where I was trained, basic tolerances were established by how dimensions were displayed. Fractions automatically were assumed to be ±1/64", while three place decimals were ±.005", and two place decimals were ±.010. Any deviation of tolerance beyond those parameters was specified with the dimension. Makes it real easy for the builder to know the boundaries of dimensions.

H
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Re: Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by Steve Alley »

Harold
1/64 is .015625 and plus and messiness is .03125 that is a lot. I was thinking that the fractions came from pattern workers way of thinking. It was carried over to the plans for Machinist to follow. Seam that Machines work in more tighter tolerances then this and it would be a lot to ask of them. Sure back in the day we didn't have the way to measure and the machinery has gotten so much better machinery today to hold tighter. But then there is the word (Railroad slop) So where does one start and stop on our hobby in tolerance. Drivers need to be quarter correctly. The tighter we hold on it the less rod and side rod weare. I just hate it when I hear a sharp looking Loco make this noise. We learn from our mistakes and yet we start a engine at frame and drivers. Its a the beginning of the learn curve of our capability. New builder fine these changeless to be tough. And yet we start off with some were witch is the foundation of the house, or Loco. So I disagree with +and- 1/64 for tolerance. + or - .005 we can always take more.
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Re: Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by Harold_V »

Steve,
The point is there are dimensions that simply aren't critical. Those are the ones that remain as a fraction. Like the overall length of a casting, as an example. If you dimension such an item with a three place decimal, you either must accept scrap (rarely will a casting be held to .005" tolerance, especially a sand casting), or you reject the vast majority of castings, all for no good reason. The rest are dimensioned according to the permitted tolerance. This has nothing to do with how a guy machines--it simply provides a rule of thumb for him to follow.

As you suggested, machines (CNC), today, tend to work to a given dimension, and will yield close tolerance work regardless of specified tolerance. However, the home shop type often isn't fortunate enough to own such equipment, so they are at the mercy of their individual skills. Some of those folks shoot for a nominal dimension, and consider tolerance only when the dimension is missed---as a way to know when the dimension is missed beyond an acceptable limit. That was the way I worked, and appreciated knowing when I had missed beyond reason. So then, the idea is sound--it does nothing in regards to how a guy works, it just spells out a tolerance without looking at the tolerance block for every dimension. Simple, and very effective.

While you may disagree with the tolerances mentioned, above, industry didn't seem to object. The place where I was trained was Sperry Utah Engineering Laboratories, and their project was research and development of the Sergeant Missile, as well as the launcher, and they went on to produce them until they were rendered obsolete. That's how their prints were provided to the shop--with the tolerances as I specified. You control quality by dimensioning accordingly. It worked for them, and it will work just fine for the home shop guy, and it keeps things simple. One knows, at a glance, if a dimension is critical, or not, and if so, how critical. Make all dimensions to three places and that is no longer the case. All you do is create more unknowns.

If you make them to four places, as some are wont to do, that would imply a critical tolerance, and that is likely not the case. You'll be doing the builder a injustice if you pursue your plan to make all dimensions decimal.

H
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Harlock
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Re: Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by Harlock »

Every shop and company today sets their own standards internally, but those largely working with ANSI standards in today's industry have long moved away from fractions. The default tolerance is called out in the drawing sheet data, with "unless otherwise specified" usually printed next to that, with all dimensions being decimal. This is my experience from 13 years in Aerospace ending recently. So there's two schools - the traditional fractional school which some folks may be more comfortable with, and the current school of industrial drawing which other folks may be more comfortable with. Both have their merits. I think regardless of which one you choose, you need to do it well.

It is also very true that when you convert some fractions to decimal, they go out to four (or more) places, and if your dimensional tolerance on your drawing sheet is out to three places, they look funny, and at worst could cause a small error buildup if you show dimensions in series rather than from an origin point. (think of a hole pattern where each hole is spaced 1.0625" apart and your drawing rounds up to 1.063, and there are 20 holes. You have just introduced an error of .01 along the pattern - but you are allowed to deviate from your standard dimensional tolerance on dimensions that have that problem...) the solution is to dimension the drawing correctly so as to avoid that situation, which can be done using decimals.

There is another overall issue with Gene's drawings in that they are typically very casual. There IS no default tolerance called out, and there are typically no tolerances called out on any of gene's dimensions. You are expected to know what to do given the situation. Fortunately Steam Locomotives are very forgiving. There are also some examples where you have to hunt all over a very cluttered drawing sheet or multiple sheets to find all of the dimensions for a part. This is the kind of thing that will tear a beginner's hair out unless they have a shop mentor or an experienced live steamer helping them to get going. We'd like to clean some of that up. An experienced live steam machinist? No problem most likely, it looks like the last 4 versions of that part he made for other engines. Fortunately Gene was very willing to take his time to help people over the phone and by letter with their projects, and Steve has carried on that tradition.

I think the bottom line is that as Harold points out, there are a lot of considerations to take in mind when switching the drawings, but I personally believe it should be done eventually, in a way that takes care to avoid the mistakes which Harold rightly brings up. My own experience is that I'd rather have decimals because that's what I see on my handwheels and DROs, and that's what folk are also plugging into their CNC machines nowadays. Sure, we've all memorized the common fractions but there is still an extra step.

The difficulty is that the locomotives are very much wrapped around fractional dimensions. I have had good luck working with that and making modern drawings that interface with the rest of the engine.

When I started making drawings for new Allen parts such as the machining drawings for the waterjet frames, I at first tried to come up with a compromise between Gene's colloquial style and standards-based modern drawings. I realized that was a mistake because it wasn't as efficient as full-on ANSI - either information was left out or it took more room to describe something that recent ANSI standards have evolved to be very efficient at doing. So I started doing them to full ANSI standards and they are becoming a lot more clean and readable. Other draftsmen who have been working with Allen Models have also been doing purely decimal based drawings for new or re-made parts.

My favorite contemporary drawing reference book is Design, Dimension and Tolerancing by Wilson. It shows how to make dimensions for all sorts of interesting situations very clear.

Best,

-Mike
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Re: Allen Models - running boards back in stock

Post by steamin10 »

Jigs, templates, and drawings. When working with castings it is important to set up a known starting point, say for a cylinder bore, or maybe even a truck frame, and get things laid out according to dimension and square. Just boring a cylinder set according to the casting can get you in trouble if it is off line for overall dimension, even if the stock is offset. It must be centered for use and on center for alignment in the machine. Likewise a truck sideframe when flipped around to match a pair has to be dead on, or the error in square doubles. It is things like this that drives the newbees out of the hobby because they feel they fail. One try, and done. That is where my mentor came in, he challenged me to solve the problem by defining the question, and proposing an answer to common machining problems of dimension, holding, and matching. Drilling a mounting hole in a steam passage is a no--no so cylinder covers must be aligned in very particular ways, even if the spacing is odd.. It needs to work and do work.

Boring a cylinder to dimension is another good one. It is FINISHED dimension and sliding parts fitted to a tolerance for clearance to operate. Miniatures have alot of loss and must run loose or they wont run. I have seen beautiful locos literally seize up because of too tight a tolerance for the temperature changes. It is not the fault of the machining. but the fitting.

A little knowledge of what others do is paramount, and that is the reason for the magazines and this board, to help clear the air.

I am much more mechanic than a machinist. ask my kludge hammer.
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