What is a riding scale?

[Mr Ron]

As the subject states, I am a bit confused as to what constitutes a "riding" scale. I have read in a "Little Engines" catalog where a 1/4" scale live steamer has enough power to actually pull a person on a riding car, but obviously it is too small to be able to accommodate a human. Locomotives have been built in scales ranging from Z up to 1-1/2 scale and bigger. I'm referring now only to electric powered engines and not steam. I have built two engines at 1-1/2 scale that are capable of hauling humans , but as you go down in scale, the ability to haul a human gets much less stable. I think 1-1/2 scale is the smallest scale to be considered to be a riding scale. Any smaller and although the power is there, the ability to carry something as big as a human poses problems such as stability on rails that are only 4-3/4" apart (1" scale). Even 7-1/2" gauge seems pretty unstable a platform. When track gauge gets to be 12", 15" and larger, stability is much better as you are now approaching "narrow" gauge. I now build in 3/4 scale with no intention of ever hauling a passenger. So I ask my fellow colleagues; what do you consider "riding" scale?

[STRR]

Mr. Ron,

Riding scale or Grand scale railroads are LOOSELY described as 12" to 36" gauge railroads. Some people want to make the description as; You ride IN the train and NOT ON the train. This description is not used as widely as the first.

Basically, Riding scale is the group of gauges, between Live Steam size and full size railroads.

I realize this may be as clear as mud but, it's the best most people use. As I own an 18" gauge railroad, I use Riding scale railroad as a description of mine.

Cheers,
Terry

[Glenn Brooks]

Mr. Ron,

Traditionally 'Park Gauge' miniature trains were considered to be 12" to 24" gauge. Around 1900, 1/2", 3/4" and 1" scale live steam trains were often referred to as "models". Any gauge larger than 24" was subject to Federal railroad regulations and inspections, and considered to be a full size train set - either narrow gauge or standard gauge. Around 1890 a small number of people, most famously the Cagney brothers - but there were other fine builders as well, started producing 12" gauge 'miniature trains' for amusement park use. These were considered to be 'riding scale' trains as they could accommodate one passenger per seat in small, open top gondolas - much like 7 1/2" gauge riding cars today. There were even a few 7 1/2" ga concession trains - notably at the Denver Idlewild (?) Park in the late 1880's, and a few on the east coast. However most concession operators quickly adopted 15" gauge, due to the ability to increase revenue by seating two passengers side by side - usually an adult and small child. These were still mostly advertised as " Minaiature Railroads".

Finally, somewhere around 1920-1925 the North American amusement park industry adopted 24" gauge as a standard Park Guage, (going form memory here- could have been earlier), partly to gain economy of scale and secure price reductions from vendors for standardized wheels sets and parts, such as couplers, brakes, and even riding cars and motive power. 24" scale also allowed optimum passenger carrying and revenue generation with adult two abreast seating in all rail cars. This gauge was also small enuf to escape federal RR inspection requirements. I've heard the amusement park industry lobbied for this exemption - But haven't really explored this historical aspect in any detail.

Anyway, the key marketing word in early days of live steam, circa 1900's was " Miniature trains". These miniature trains were billed as riding (scale)railroads. Certanly we can trace the development of today's many riding scale gauges - notably 4 3/4", 5", 7 1/x", 9", and 10 1/4", gauge (popular in England) to the popularity and efforts of those early day pioneers.

[Erskine Tramway]

Hi Ron.....

Strictly speaking, 'riding scale' is any size you can ride in or on. The 'scale' cars I have on my 7-1/2" gauge railway are 6" scale models of Sir Arthur Heywood's 15" gauge cars. My motive power is 'full size for the gauge', meaning it's about as big as you can go without tipping over My locomotives are 24-25" wide, my passenger coach is 24" wide.

Mike

[SteveM]

For the purposes of the board, I believe that "riding scale" refers to those trains that are not steam powered. This was done to separate the steam and non-steam locomotive discussions.

I think LBSC once, on a dare, built a garden-scale steam engine and had it pull him, so, I suppose that was "riding scale" based on Mike's definition.

Steve

[steamin10]

Interesting twist on what I had assumed was any model train that could carry an operator. 3/4 inch and its ground and highline being the smallest and widely practiced.

I never considered the question before, I just assumed the kiddie land park trains and finer hand built1.5 inch (and others) were the core of the ride on train world.

[johnder]

Mr. Ron, I have to agree with Mike here. Any scale that you can put a human on is riding scale. As for your comment about stability and 4-3/4", I own a F7 A unit and a gondola. I can pull myself and two to three adults with no stability issues. As long as the track is level and well maintained, there should never be an issue, as with our track at LALS.

Just my .2 worth...

[Pontiacguy1]

Riding scales have always been considered any scale or model of train that was able to be ridden and driven by the operator as it was moving. The smallest riding scale has always been considered to be 1/2" to the foot scale running on 2 1/2" gauge track (gauge 3). As steamin10 said above, it is not a very popular scale and gauge anymore, at least not in the US, so most people don't think of it. There may be a few exceptions where an O gauge or G gauge model might could pull a person and actually be ridden behind, but they would be the exception and not the rule. The vast majority of locomotives in those scales are not built as passenger haulers, whereas in 1/2" scale, the majority are built as passenger haulers, and traditionally were considered as such.

1/2" scale is the largest of the scenic scales, where operators don't ride behind or on a train, and where the surroundings and setting are very important (think layout here), and is the smallest of the riding scales, where the operator actually sits behind the locomotive, usually riding side-saddle on a flat car and on an elevated track. After WWII, the hobby upscaled to 3/4" scale and 3 1/2" gauge track, and the 1/2" scale stuff fell out of favor and use for the most part.

Grand scales have always been considered anything larger than the common 7 1/2" gauge (9", 12", 15", 18", 24", and any other variations out there). Those are the definitions that I've always been told and always used.

[Mr Ron]

Thank you all for your clarification. I model only electric and diesel prototypes, no steam. A steam prototype powered by electricity doesn't quite gel with me. Although I haven't done it yet, I plan to power my 3/4 scale models from 3rd rail, overhead wire or internal batteries. Control will be by radio control. Future plans are to install a camera at track level for real time viewing. I am more a large scale model railroader than a train operator. Can you imagine an 81 year old, 275 pound, straddling a locomotive of any scale? I think not. My future goals may seem unattainable, but I will persevere.

[Fender]

I'm with Pontiacguy on this. The traditional Little Engines catalogs of the past listed loco "kits" ranging from 1/4" scale (1:48) up to 1.5" scale (1:8). The 1/4" scale was intended for "tabletop" railroads, but everything larger could be ridden on or behind. Many of the outdoor tracks built in the 1930s onward had provision for 2.5" gauge (1/2" scale), 3.5" gauge (3/4" scale) and 4.75" gauge (1" scale), all on elevated tracks. The popularity of the larger 7.25" and 7.5" gauges came later.

[Glenn Brooks]

Dan, many idea when Little Engines published it's first catalog?

Al Campbell and one or two other early day vendors in New York were selling 3/4" scale locomotive kits nationwide in 1896. In the early days the 3/4" scale gauge was apparently 3 3/16". Not sure when it became 3 1/2".


It's fascinating to me how the early day live steam hobby evolved...
Thanks
Glenn

[Fender]

The oldest LE catalog I have is about 1960, but I think the LE catalogs go back to the 1940s at least.
One other comment: back in the early days, nearly all locomotives were steam, and usually built by their owners. The distinction between "live steam" and "riding scale" (electric or gas-powered locos) didn't exist. More recently, this term has come into use to clarify the difference between trains pulled by miniature steam locos vs. gasoline- or electric-powered trains.