8hp vs 16 hp

This forum is dedicated to Riding Scale Railroading with propulsion using other than steam (Hydraulics, diesel engines, gas engines, electric motors, hybrid etc.)

Moderators: Harold_V, WJH

Nik3v
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by Nik3v » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:33 am

Well,
At least I have turn outs in my track work and not switches.

I do know about the pipe fittings. This is the way I received it and I will be replacing them. That’s one of the reasons for the original question. So I would know what fittings to order.

Most likely going to remove one oily engine.
Thanks
Nik3v

User avatar
Erskine Tramway
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:13 pm
Location: South Dakota
Contact:

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by Erskine Tramway » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:07 am

Nik3v wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:33 am
Well,
At least I have turn outs in my track work and not switches.

Thanks
Nik3v
Well....if we're getting pedantic, you have both :D The switch is the track assembly. The turnout is the curved side of a switch that 'turns out', and is usually speed restricted. They are shown in the Company's 'Timetable and Special Instructions' under 'Speeds through turnouts'. The operative word being 'through' and not 'over', the curved side has a speed limit, but the straight side is full track speed. We always called them switches, as in 'Number 1 Track switch', or 'power witches, never turnouts, anyway.

And, if we are going to 'get in the weeds' about it, what you have is an 'Hydrostatic' drive, not Hydraulic. Hydrostatic is pump to motor, Hydraulic used to be called 'Fluid drive', when I was a kid, referring to Automatic transmissions in cars.

I'm not intending to be insulting, so don't take it that way, but if we're going to talk about things, proper terminology is important, so that everybody is on the same page :wink:

Mike
Former Locomotive Engineer and Designer, Sandley Light Railway Equipment Works, Inc. and Riverside & Great Northern Railway 1962-77
BN RR Locomotive Engineer 1977-2014, Retired

Nik3v
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by Nik3v » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:29 am

No offense taken. Just brought to mind the H.O. Discussions about switches being an electrical item.
I only just recently learned about the schedule 40 pipe not being suitable and it was a thread on here I believe.

Did not know about the hydrostatic drive. Always thought hydrostatic meant it was all one unit. Pump and drive in one as opposed to separate.
So I guess technically the travel motors on a large excavator are still a form of hydrostatic drive.
I appreciate these forums. I learn something almost every time I visit.
I have lots of track work this summer because I didn’t know to put the screws in the ties like this .’ ‘. Instead of •• ••. Now I understand why I’ve had so much creep in my track.
These boards are full of good information.
Nik3v

rkcarguy
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am
Location: Wa State

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by rkcarguy » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:52 am

The 1/2" fittings are typically used for one pump and hydraulic motors in "series", so there is no doubt that is the pinch point in your flow.
Hydraulic pressures should run in the 1400-1800 PSI range when you find a hill and are moving some weight, so those pipe fittings are a big blowout waiting to happen. Those are typically rated around 300 PSI only. Hydraulic fittings will be forged or extra thick wall stainless(we use some seamless schedule 80 stainless fittings in projects at work that are rated to 5000 PSI).
You should see some efficiency improvement over how it is now on one engine, with all that T piping mess removed.

Nik3v
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by Nik3v » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:07 pm

There’s something I hadn’t even thought about. These are set up in parallel with a tee and lines to each truck. Would plumbing them in series be a better choice? I do understand the extra restrictions in elbows, tees, and such. I know about electric in series and parallel, but not so much in fluid.
Nik3v

User avatar
BigDumbDinosaur
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: Midwestern United States

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by BigDumbDinosaur » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:09 pm

Harold_V wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:26 am
BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:01 am
Not to be too pedantic, but the correct term for those two oily things with the fins that make noise and horsepower is "engine," not "motor." :D

In mechanical engineering, a machine that converts the chemical energy of fuel into kinetic energy is called an engine or prime mover. A machine that converts potential energy to kinetic energy is called a motor.
Thanks for that. All too many refer to the engine in an automobile as a "motor" (which would be correct for electric automobiles). Likely due to the line that got fuzzed long ago when motorcycles were invented. It's a little more comfortable to say than enginecycle. :-)
A trauma nurse I dated years ago used to refer to a motorcycle as the quickest way to the emergency room—as a patient. :shock:
Erskine Tramway wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:07 am
Nik3v wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:33 am
Well,
At least I have turn outs in my track work and not switches.
Well....if we're getting pedantic, you have both :D The switch is the track assembly. The turnout is the curved side of a switch that 'turns out', and is usually speed restricted. They are shown in the Company's 'Timetable and Special Instructions' under 'Speeds through turnouts'. The operative word being 'through' and not 'over', the curved side has a speed limit, but the straight side is full track speed. We always called them switches, as in 'Number 1 Track switch', or 'power witches, never turnouts, anyway.
I've met one or two witches over the years, but was not sure if they were manually operated or had power assist. :D
And, if we are going to 'get in the weeds' about it, what you have is an 'Hydrostatic' drive, not Hydraulic. Hydrostatic is pump to motor, Hydraulic used to be called 'Fluid drive', when I was a kid, referring to Automatic transmissions in cars.
Furthermore, an automobile's automatic transmission has a hydrodynamic torque multiplier, which is that oil-filled, doughnut-shaped thing everyone (including me) calls a "torque converter."
I'm not intending to be insulting, so don't take it that way, but if we're going to talk about things, proper terminology is important, so that everybody is on the same page :wink:
There is a topic somewhere around here on use of proper English in one's posts. It was interesting to read some of the excuses about why this person or that couldn't post in grammatically-correct English. :)
—————————————————————————————————
I'm an old guy. What's your excuse? ☻

User avatar
BigDumbDinosaur
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: Midwestern United States

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by BigDumbDinosaur » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:13 pm

Nik3v wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:07 pm
There’s something I hadn’t even thought about. These are set up in parallel with a tee and lines to each truck. Would plumbing them in series be a better choice? I do understand the extra restrictions in elbows, tees, and such. I know about electric in series and parallel, but not so much in fluid.
Nik3v
Series is customary in model locomotives. If the motors are in parallel there will be more of a tendency for one truck to slip during startup or on upgrades. With the motors in series, both trucks are forced to run at the same speed, assuming the motors are the same displacement.

In my F7, I have it plumbed so the oil flow is from the pump to the reverser valve, to the rear truck, to the front truck and back to the reverser valve. "Rear truck" is relative to the direction of travel, not the locomotive.
—————————————————————————————————
I'm an old guy. What's your excuse? ☻

User avatar
BigDumbDinosaur
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: Midwestern United States

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by BigDumbDinosaur » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:16 pm

Nik3v wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:33 am
So I would know what fittings to order.
I was going to attach some Parker catalogs for you but the Chaski board software apparently won't allow the upload of a PDF file.
—————————————————————————————————
I'm an old guy. What's your excuse? ☻

User avatar
warmstrong1955
Posts: 3277
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:05 pm
Location: Northern Nevada

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by warmstrong1955 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:56 pm

Not in the weeds....just equipment nomenclature.....
Hydraulic drive refers to fixed displacement systems, ie, generally; gear or vane pumps & motors
Hydrostatic drive refers to variable displacement systems, ie; piston pumps using either fixed or variable displacement motors
Torque converter, is a combination of a fluid coupling, with a torque multiplier. Since it's what the manufacturers call the beast, and have for years, I'll stick with their name for it.

:)
Today's solutions are tomorrow's problems.

Nik3v
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by Nik3v » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:20 pm

Thanks guys. This will greatly simplify my plumbing.
I will look up the Parker catalogues you mentioned.

User avatar
warmstrong1955
Posts: 3277
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:05 pm
Location: Northern Nevada

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by warmstrong1955 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:25 pm

Here ya go.....Parker.....
https://www.parker.com/literature/Tube% ... _Cover.pdf

I'm an Aeroquip fan, more variety, in spite of being conquered by the Eaton Gods, so here is that.....
https://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public ... 479318.pdf
Adapters start at page 198
Today's solutions are tomorrow's problems.

Harold_V
Posts: 17629
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: 8hp vs 16 hp

Post by Harold_V » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:39 pm

BigDumbDinosaur wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:09 pm

A trauma nurse I dated years ago used to refer to a motorcycle as the quickest way to the emergency room—as a patient. :shock:
Worked for me. As a young lad, one with no bike experience aside from having a Doodlebug as a kid, my '63 TR-6, purchased new, landed me in the hospital with a concussion and a dislocated clavicle.
I sold the bike.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

Post Reply