MACHINE SWITCH

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whateg0
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby whateg0 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:04 pm

It's sitting outside the garage awaiting its fate. Normally, I'm all for keeping things in their "vintage" state. But, I'm also not opposed to updating when it makes sense. In this case, it wasn't running when I got it and didn't want to mess with it. I have thought about taking a battery out and seeing if the DC motor is still good. I gather that they are pretty tough. It's the supply and control that are usually at fault. There'll be enough other non-original stuff that it won't really be much of an original 10ee.

Besides, I know where there's another with the original MG and DC motor in use. It's a nice machine, but I know it requires some additional upkeep to keep it running right. I'm good with what I've done.

f350ca
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:10 pm
Location: Calabogie Ontario

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby f350ca » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:45 pm

The VFD I just installed on my drill press has parameters that allow auto restart or remain off if input power is lost. You can even set the power interruption time down to milliseconds. The inputs for momentary on/off buttons work fine as they would on any magnetic starter.

Greg

John Hasler
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:05 pm
Location: Elmwood, Wisconsin

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby John Hasler » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:25 am

whateg0 wrote:It's sitting outside the garage awaiting its fate. Normally, I'm all for keeping things in their "vintage" state. But, I'm also not opposed to updating when it makes sense. In this case, it wasn't running when I got it and didn't want to mess with it. I have thought about taking a battery out and seeing if the DC motor is still good. I gather that they are pretty tough. It's the supply and control that are usually at fault. There'll be enough other non-original stuff that it won't really be much of an original 10ee.

Besides, I know where there's another with the original MG and DC motor in use. It's a nice machine, but I know it requires some additional upkeep to keep it running right. I'm good with what I've done.


It's a near certainty that the motor-generator and the DC motor are still good: they're just about indestructable. The drawback to the Ward-Leonard system isn't performance: it's initial cost, size, and weight. You have what amounts to three motors to do the work of one.

The modification I would have made, if any, would have been to replace the motor-generator and associated circuitry with a DC motor controller. That combination would far outperform any VFD.

whateg0
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby whateg0 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:42 am

John Hasler wrote:... The modification I would have made, if any, would have been to replace the motor-generator and associated circuitry with a DC motor controller. That combination would far outperform any VFD.


That was a consideration. That modification would also have outcost the AC motor and VFD combination by a factor of 2, as well.

whateg0
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby whateg0 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:29 pm

Didn't get much done last night, but came home for lunch today and checked the VFD out. Sure enough, it is set by default to not start up again from an external input when power is applied. So, if power goes out, it shuts off, then when it turns back on, if one of the external inputs is low, it does nothing. You have to remove the input before it will do anything. I guess I need to mess with it a little more, but for now it seems that it has to be switched back in twice before it does anything. So, apply power, remove input, apply input, remove input, apply input, spindle turns. It could be that it's a time thing and it just took me long enough to go through that that by the time I applied the FWD signal, it was ready to run again. Not sure what would have happened if I'd switched to reverse instead, either.

But, to use the original switches, which are momentary, I'll still need to do something with a couple of relays. At least I learned something about my VFD today, or re-learned it, or something.

John Hasler
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:05 pm
Location: Elmwood, Wisconsin

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby John Hasler » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:48 pm

whateg0 wrote:
John Hasler wrote:... The modification I would have made, if any, would have been to replace the motor-generator and associated circuitry with a DC motor controller. That combination would far outperform any VFD.


That was a consideration. That modification would also have outcost the AC motor and VFD combination by a factor of 2, as well.


Pricey motor control.

Patio
Posts: 1052
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:14 pm
Location: Centralia Wa

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby Patio » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:44 pm

All you need is a hold in, push button circuit.
Here is an example.
http://er.yuvayana.org/how-to-create-re ... -examples/

I have a lathe that I am slooooooowly working to get to function with the original controls.
Good luck.
Live for the moment!
Prepare for tomorrow!
Forgive the past!

shorttrackhack
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 4:38 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby shorttrackhack » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:17 pm

Check the VFD manual in the control circuit section. There will be a provision for operating from the terminal strip, and a parameter to set it. In the same section, there will be an option for '3-wire' or '2-wire' control. 2-wire will keep a maintained contact switch closed for start on power up and operation, breaking that circuit initiates the stop. 3-wire will use a momentarily closed contact start command an a momentary open contact on another circuit to initiate the coast or ramp-down cycle, preventing start up on power up with out a command.

whateg0
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby whateg0 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:15 am

shorttrack, you may be overestimating the VFD documentation I have. I have seen the manual that came with my buddy's Hitachi, so I know some do have real documentation. Mine has about 10 pages. There is a setting for "Start again by external signal" that seems to do the trick. If I have that set to disable, I have to ground the fwd or rev pin two times before it will accept an input and start. The 10ee uses a NO switch to start the motor generator, then you press the stop button, which is a NC switch to stop it. Plus, there is a neutral interlock as part of the ELSR, so there are means in place for preventing accidental startup. I'm thinking with the VFD tested now, I may just replace the 70 year old pushbutton switches with something newer and call it a day.

whateg0
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby whateg0 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:17 am

Patio, I'm really torn between trying to keep as much of the outside appearance original as I can, but I'm obviously not opposed to gutting it. I don't know why I do this, but I've done it all my life. I remember trying to make $5000 stereo systems look "factory" just because I could. Maybe it's because anybody can toss something together as a replacement, but making it look like it was never modified is a challenge.

Harold_V
Posts: 16371
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby Harold_V » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:35 am

whateg0 wrote:Patio, I'm really torn between trying to keep as much of the outside appearance original as I can, but I'm obviously not opposed to gutting it. I don't know why I do this, but I've done it all my life. I remember trying to make $5000 stereo systems look "factory" just because I could. Maybe it's because anybody can toss something together as a replacement, but making it look like it was never modified is a challenge.

It's the curse of perfectionism. I suffer badly from that affliction, and approach many of my projects in the same fashion.

The "perfectionist" comment. That's not to say I do everything perfect. Far from it, in fact, but I try my best to do it right, often stymied by my lack of understanding, or even worse, unavailability of needed components. I take great pride in the things I do, as they represent me as a person.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

whateg0
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: MACHINE SWITCH

Postby whateg0 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:36 pm

Harold,
That describes me pretty well. Went to lunch a few years back with my folks and some friends. My mom had just finished staining the wood for the bed in my brother's truck and somebody asked her if she was going to do any work on my project truck. She said, with no uncertainty, absolutely not. She said that even if I said it looked great, she'd know that I had found some flaw in it somewhere.

A couple days ago a friend of mine commented that all of my work was just astounding. I told him that he only said that because only the stuff I thought was astounding made it onto facebook!

I do strive for perfection, though, in everything, keeping in mind that not everything needs to be perfect. Sometimes good enough really is good enough. But, I've seen and bought machines and tools before that somebody had said was in great shape but was really cobbled together and thought, man, whoever did this was a real hack! I don't ever want to be that guy, now or after I'm dead.


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