OT: Building in isolated location

[pete]

I very much appreciate the thanks but I'm only trying to do what I'd do while training someone face to face. It helps a lot to relate examples of what could and has happened. Then once there trained well enough to be turned loose it's up to them how serious they take what there doing. Anywhere I've worked you prove yourself first or they don't let you get trained to move up the ladder. (pun intended) When they start saving the most dangerous jobs for only one or two operators then you know the company has some trust in your abilitys. But even then one single screw up looses a whole lot of atta boys.

But the jobs not all that much different than many others where mistakes get people killed Spro. Cutis's EMT position takes far more training and skills than what I do. Lot's of those EMT's in the big citys have been injured or even killed just trying to do there job in the best way they know how. Many here are probably in the same position in there jobs. I can say believe about 25% of whats shown on tv about large earth moving equipment. That show that used to be on about Alaska gold mining I used to watch because it made me laugh so much. That young kid and the older guy from North Dakota? were the only ones who really had a clue when they wern't being forced to play the game for the cameras. It isn't at all like some of these "reality" shows try to show it.

I dunno about Bills underground mining, but most open pit miners when there being open and honest think it takes about 10 years to make a good operator that you can fully trust.I've had mechanics with there hands and arms in where one wrong control move and they'd be gone. Doing a bucket change you have less than 1/16th of an inch to postion a few hundred tons so the pins will start. There might be 6 mechanics working in right tight to the machine during that simple bucket change. I've seen a few operators the mechanics refused to work with.Some of my posts might sound impressive, but it's really not. Thousands of people do the same in mines and construction sites around the world every day. And I'm much more impressed with what EMT's can do than anything I've ever seen done in any mine. What I do is just a slightly different job that not too many people know much about. Most day's it's boring and repitious as hell. Any time it gets real exiting or interesting your really pushing the limits, or you or someone else has had a real oops moment. Extremely close calls are generaly graded as to how big a pinch mark everyone thinks you left in the seat.

[spro]

For me, I'm fortunate to have your reply. These are not something which can be understood by a quick read. I will keep reading and learn more every time. I will not pretend to grasp all the information and definitely not the skill... this is immense but it does filter down to other areas where many are more comfortable. There are a few places where there are monuments to Miners and operators of severe Heavy Equipment. They Do move the earth because the earth was granted to us. It just took continual knowledge to extract these gifts. It all cycles around, whether it is used or not. Lame reply is all I have.

[warmstrong1955]

We had a young man, hauling ore from the mine to the mill in a Paystar 10-wheeler, who missed a shift. Grade was variable, but generally 8-10%. By the time he figured out he should have slammed on the binders, it was too late. He made it all the way down the hill, and chose to turn into the stockpile for the crusher. It was estimated he hit the muckpile at about 70+ MPH. The front axle stayed right there where he hit the muckpile. The 855 Cummins went flipping over the other side of the stockpile...about 100'. Front frame pushed into the firewall, and the firewall was pushed into the seat bottoms. Steering wheel & column pushed the back of the cab rearward about a foot. The dump box parted company with the truck, and both it & what was left of the truck did a full end over end. With axles and other parts & pieces flying different directions.
He walked away. He wasn't wearing a seat belt, and when he hit the pile, it flung him up to the top of the cab. Some bruises....but nothing broken. Belted in....he would have been flatter than a platter.

Enough cannot be said about EMT's. I've seen them in action, twice when they had guys who were dead. No breathing, no heartbeat....D-E-A-D dead. Both those guys are still with us.
Nothing short of amazing. I've had all kinds of first aid, CPR, and mine rescue training, but I lay no claim to be at the level of these guys.

Bill

[warmstrong1955]

Something to say on ROPS canopies, that most do not know. They are not indestructible, build it as heavy as you like structures. As a matter of fact, they are quite fragile. Their design is much like a race car, and 'soft walls' on the race track...as they must not only deflect energy, but must be able to absorb it. They are.....flexible for lack of a better word.
The energy they must be capable of absorbing and deflecting is based on GVW of the vehicle, and they must be destructively tested to be certified. I got to see one tested at Medford steel....impressive, as well as enlightening!
Basically they are good for one sideways roll, full 360. Anything after that....if it stays in one piece, is a bonus.
Brief summary.....but their ya go....

Surface mining requires ROPS on most all equipment, but underground mines do not. They tend not to hold up well bouncing off the ribs. MSHA canopies are preferred, as they have a minimum weight they must withstand, but no maximum, and they need not absorb energy. You can build them as strong as you like.
Seat belts must be worn in surface equipment. Underground, the equipment must have a seat belt, but it is not required to wear one, although, some mines require them worn.

Trivia....


Other Bill

[warmstrong1955]

Oh....and the last part of the ROPS test, is a FOPS test.
Picture a 500 pound, 9" diameter bucket pin dropped from a little over 16' above the canopy, (minimum requirement) where the operator is sitting. POINK!
Also a fun test!

Sounds pretty severe, but like Pete says, look at the bench in the background of the pic....and picture that falling on your lid!


Other Bill

[spro]

Wow! Well dang it I have to reconsider a few things. FWIW I have an old Terramite with the ROPS bars. It's become a little crusty from stored somewhere else. I know it's small but heavy enough to be dangerous. As you know, its all hydraulic and the engine is running flat out for the backhoe. Where I need to use it is all one big slope and I need to depend upon the out riggers, big time. So with the seat turned around etc to operate the hoe, I don't even have a kill switch there. So I need to test the spool and make sure it won't loose pressure during a tip. My fear is being half-way out and the ROPS squish me like a sausage or permanent haircut. ( actually though, my beard would keep growing lol) But really I need to do a seat belt as part of the other mods. Thanks again, Men.

[pete]

Like anything else it all depends on the exact set of variables if the belts, ROPS, and any other safety gear will help or make things worse. There all a good idea and I'm damn glad the rules have changed enough to require it. Without trying to start a political debate the way things are set up today few making the rules and regulations know enough to properly judge if a blanket rule such as seat belts at all times is even a good idea in certain situations.

And 100% right about those ROPS Bill and what there capable of withstanding. Even lower grade, rusty, or loose attachment bolts will seriously affect there protection rating. Any old bolt as long as it's cheap just isn't good enough. It wasn't required but I used to keep an eye on the welds on the ROPS as part of the daily check. Only found one weld where after a lot of years and vibration on a Cat the weld had started to crack on one side.

A D-11 is over a 100 tons, big beefy ROPS on them but eye ball estimates told me not to rely on it totally saving me if I did something really stupid. Rolling a machine over in large sharp rock changes a lot that likely the tests can't cover. YouTube has dozens if not hundreds of "oops" examples showing heavy equipment. Some mechanical failures but for most there operator errors and an experienced operator can usually tell what's going to happen before it does. There are some that show amazing operating abilitys though.

That Paystar driver was extremely lucky Bill. Better to be lucky than good sometimes. Newmont used to have a board up in the dry showing pictures of almost all the results over the years of costly mistakes. I thought it was a good idea as it showed the newer operators what can easily happen. Most non miners forget that almost all mines run 24-7. First night shift is always tough. Add in dead tired and anyone starts to get sloppy and cuts corners. I know I have. I've seen pictures of a large 10" plus blast hole drill where the operator backed it right off the 44' bench and rolled it onto the lower bench. For the large drills I've never seen one with a ROPS on it. Your supposed to stay on flat pretty much level ground with them. It's amazing what some people get up to right before some mandatory time off.

[warmstrong1955]

A thought on your backhoe on a steep grade Spro.....
In rough country, track drills have winches installed, to keep them stable, and from tipping over. I've seen cases, and I had some big framed pictures in my office, of ECM350's in places that if it were not for the winch, they would lose the battle with gravity. The driller didn't walk down to his drill, he repelled.

I have seen the same done with excavators, mini excavators up to smaller sized machines, largest being a Hitachi EX200. Either the winch mounted on the excavator, or the excavator tied to a bigger heavier piece of equipment with a winch.
Call it insurance! No reason it can't be done with a rubber tired machine.

Just a thought.


Other Bill

[warmstrong1955]

I agree with that Pete! In most any case I can think of but the Paystar, and one other, seatbelts saved injury, and lives. That's not including cars & pickups either.
Yes....a lucky young man indeed! Payin' the preacher that one....

Underground mining.....some things are not so critical, as the speeds are incredibly slow. Most equipment is blocked to 2nd gear.
I did serve as an expert witness on a couple different fatality years ago. We had the same model of haultrucks that were involved in both, and I did some testing on ours to prove my hypothesis on the causes. Wearing a seatbelt was one, that could have saved him.
Important to mention....and to your point Pete, that both happened at the end of shift, in a rush to get down to the station and catch the cage to go top-land.

Another note working underground, is I have found that ROPS, or any kind of canopy, can cause men to become complacent. They don't bar down the loose so well, thinking that they will be protected by the lid. They figure they can get mucked out, and scale the loose later, and I've seen some nasty results. To themselves, and to the driller or walkin' boss who goes in the drift after him.
Goes back to shortcuts.

And....ROPS are a pain for maintenance. Underground, they suffer from 'rib-rash'. Simply put, that's bouncing off the walls.
If you bend it, it's probably toast, and you get a new one. They are not cheap.
Joe the welder, can't weld it, unless Joe is ROPS certified. If he replaces any material in it, not only Joe has to be ROPS certified, but so does the material. He also needs the original drawings, stamped by a PE, on file. Size of welds....weld prep,....etc.
It's quite a ordeal....to CYA basically.


Other Bill

[warmstrong1955]

I'm probably boring all the normal people here.

Proving once again....I'm not normal....

[spro]

Super excellent and it has been done before! Makes perfect sense I can mostly tie to a tree trunk with these huge straps. (Military helicopter drop straps > I have a 50' and my brother has one at least 100' (if it didn't sell already) Backup insurance and the axis will allow some movement without a total tip. It is just so cool to know again that what I shoulda already did. Already didn't happen. I didn't ever see or heard anyone using a strap so it would look stupid ...but I would rather it be a little overkill than DOA.
*****update here***** I read You Man I even know what &@#& meant with the mucker I hope you are normal for I hope I am at the core. Everything else is like tmi and this is a well it isn't. Long life, oh make a difference. An impact towards the good because we have seen the opposite.

[warmstrong1955]

'Overkill' is not only good, but required in mines.
For any hoisting equipment, the minimum is a 10:1 safety factor. Minimum. That's true in the US, and Canada.
Don't miss any details Spro....the 'what-ifs'....like connections with straps or chains slipping loose with equipment movement, and allowed by open hooks etc. Details can bite ya! The weak link......

A mucker is a mucker! Simple as that! No hidden meaning!
Proper term, for the rubber tired species like in my avatar, is an LHD, or...Load-Haul-Dump. Basically a front end loader you sit in sideways, but when the bucket is loaded and the boom is fully down, the load rests on the frame and steel stops, not on the hydraulics & boom lift cylinders, like a Cat 966 or other surface dwelling loaders do. It picks up muck like a front end loader, but hauls it like a truck.
Most often called a Scooptram, which is actually a copyrighted name from the inventor of the species, Eddie Wagner. The man was a genius.....
Nickname in US.....'mucker'. Comes from old 12B days.....
In Canada....it's a 'scoop'.
In Australia....it's a 'bogger'.....mate.....

Trivia overload....


Other Bill