Made in America

[Mr Ron]

With President Trump's promise to bring back jobs and manufacturing, do you think our once rightfully deserved reputation for making great machine tools will prompt U.S. machine tool companies to start making great machine tools here again?

[earlgo]

I think that would be a great idea. However, there are too many wannabe MBA's in industry for companies to pay more for a USA made machine when a cheaper knock-off can be had. The wannabe won't have to use the machines they tout as a 'better deal' so they will never learn what good quality and convenient machines are to enhance production. Up front expenditures and the bottom line is all that counts. Some managers don't understand or care about how hard it is to make stuff on an inefficient machine, but they sure want it done yesterday. The point is, there probably won't be much of a market for a high priced, but good machine if 'less expensive' but less efficient machines are available. Hate to say it but the user is subject to the whim of the purchasing department.*
In 2012 or so, I asked the manager of the company for which I worked, why we didn't put 'Made in America' on our products, and the wishy-washy answer was, well some countries don't like us and we don't want to turn them off. It was annoying but he was the boss.
--
* At one company for which I worked the engineering department specified ANSI tested hardware, and the purchasing department found a 'less expensive' supplier. Well it seems that the bolt heads of the 'less expensive' bolts popped off after a bit of use. Unfortunately the bolts were inside of a crude oil cracking tower, and one can only imagine the expense of replacement. "But it was cheaper, and we saved money on fasteners!"

--earlgo
(sorry, but I sure don't miss the ...)

[WesHowe]

I wonder if regaining the market for manual lathes and mills is really a very big deal. Sure, it looks that way when your main interest is hobby machining, but the closest commercial machine shop to me has two Haas CNC mills in it. Haas, and Tormach also, are U.S. companies that manufacture domestically. Now I know they also have a lot of foreign competition, seems like most of it Japanese and Taiwan outfits.

If you think about it, all the "cheap Chinese" tools we see are copies of old technology... many of them WW2-era designs. Much of their pricing advantage comes from cheap labor, callous environmental policies and "flexible" standards. Innovation? Not so much.

I am all for Made in America to make a comeback. But I don't think we want to roll back the clock to make major investments in commercially obsolete products.

- Wes

[LIALLEGHENY]

Exactly what is "Made In USA" ? Is it a product made here, where the parent company and profits stay here? or is it made here and the parent company and profits go outside the country? or is it mostly made here with some imported components .....? OR ???

This is a big grey area .... one that affects most industry in the USA. I recently read an interesting article on the steel industry here in the states....the article had to do with the production of steel for the infrastructure work that is supposed to happen. Many of the US steel companies will be shut out from supplying material, because they do not produce their steel from iron ore, they import ingots and repurpose the ingots into other forms of steel such as plate , angle etc. Their material is not considered being made in the USA. Doesn't matter if the companies producing from iron ore, import the raw ore, as long as it is smelted here it's USA made (by US Government law).

There are a lot of good machine tools still made in the USA but you probably couldn't afford them (new). Look at a company like Hardinge as an example. They build the HLV-H lathes and now own/build the Bridgeport manual mills as well as many other top of the line CNC machines. NO they are not cheap, but you are buying American made quality. ( and yes they also produce machines in Taiwan)

How about Mazak? Many of their machines are Made in Kentucky, good old USA, but with many parts imported from Japan. Are they considered Made In USA? and the parent company is Japanese. What about Makino? and there are many others that fall into the grey area .

I'm all for bringing the manufacturing back to the US as well, but I don't see a big resurgence happening here. There are to many laws /regulations that would have to be changed or overcome to make it viable.

Just some of my rambling thoughts!

Greatest country in the world and we couldn't produce the beams over the subway system in the base of the Freedom Tower. They had to come from Belgium!

Nyle

[SteveHGraham]

Maybe we and the Europeans should be content with the knowledge that we taught the rest of the world how to do it all.

[Steggy]

Maybe we and the Europeans should be content with the knowledge that we taught the rest of the world how to do it all.

Unfortunately, that warm and fuzzy feeling won't pay the mortgage or feed the kids.

[SteveHGraham]

Neither will making manual lathes in 2017.

[Mr Ron]

I really don't think the machine tool industry will come back home, but one can always hope. To think anything can be 100% totally produced in America is not realistic in today's global economy. My real fault with offshore manufacturing is with countries like China and India. Japan makes some great machines, because of their work ethic and they are smart. I have never seen anything made in Japan that I could fault. Taiwan is a runner-up for making quality products; I can't place them on a quality level with Japan, but they do make some pretty good stuff. In the consumer market, Taiwan holds the lead for quality tools, while Chinese made tools are a very poor second. There are no Japanese made machines here for the consumer market, as they are too expensive. All told, politics plays a big part I'm distressed to see companies selling their old miA machines for scrap and replacing them with offshore stuff. I regard a fine miA machine the same as I would a fine old automobile like a Deusenberg, Cord or Packard. Some of these old machines were truly made to last indefinitely. I think most on this forum own a vintage machine that is treasured as such and is used regularly; I am one of them with a 40's Sheldon lathe.

[SteveM]

Monarch is selling "new" 10EE's, which are really remanufactured "old" 10EE's. The original castings were so good that they can bring them back as "new" machines.

Maybe the only market for "new" American iron is to apply the same process to old South Bend and other lathes. There are so many heavy 10's and 9's out there. You rework the major castings and manufacture the parts that can't be rebuilt.

Yea, such a heavy 10 might be $5,000-$10,000, but maybe there's enough of a market.

Steve

[ctwo]

The old production methods would not seem remotely competitive. MFG returning to the US looks more like the new Intel plant in Arizona, with the appropriate work force close by. I do not expect Trump to really be able to do much in this regard without engaging in some very risky policy, and that could backfire. I rather see a long tortuous globalization process that more-or-less balances the global standard of living until cost differentials are moot.

[SteveHGraham]

If he can cut regulation the way he says he can, maybe he will get somewhere with persuading manufacturers to return, but I would be pretty surprised if people started making manual machine tools here again. It seems like the Chinese get better faster than they get more expensive.

[Magicniner]

It seems like the Chinese get better faster than they get more expensive.

The Chinese have been making tool room lathes to rival the Swiss for many years, they use them in China but they just don't get exported because by the time you get them to Europe or the USA they cost as much or more.
What everyone is calling Chinese Quality is in fact what the US and Europe importers have haggled down in price and quality to meet their sales model.