Topics include, Machine Tools & Tooling, Precision Measuring, Materials and their Properties, Electrical discussions related to machine tools, setups, fixtures and jigs and other general discussion related to amateur machining.
Magicniner wrote:The Chinese have been making tool room lathes to rival the Swiss for many years, they use them in China but they just don't get exported ...
I had figured that had to be the case, because you can't build an entire military infrastructure on the stuff they send here.
The manner in which items are made is more of an encroachment on “peoples” than where it’s made.
The continuing refinement of manufacturing processes eliminates the need for human beings to even participate in what is known as “work”. Jobs where a person secures a piece of raw material into a fixture and presses a button have long been disappearing.
Consider Wendy’s recent announcement to install self ordering kiosks.
“They are looking to improve their automation and their labor costs, and this is a good way to do it,” said Darren Tristano, vice president with Technomic — a food-service research and consulting firm. “They are also trying to enhance the customer experience. Younger customers prefer to use a kiosk.”
The whole automation “thang” has tentacles reaching way beyond what we’re able to wrap our brain around.
Whenever a “people factor” can be removed, it’s lookin’ like it will be.
Made in America; Made in the U.S.A, Made in China, Made in Japan, Made in Germany, Made in Switzerland,
Made in Mexico, Made in Brazil, and on around the globe. These labels mean something to some people, and for others, it’s a reality that’s been around for quite some time.
Access to cheap imported machine tools, associated tooling, and an Internet connection has provided the
hobby related activities written about here to blossom.
ctwo sums it up: “…I rather see a long tortuous globalization process that more-or-less balances the global standard of living until cost differentials are moot.”
The root premise of the thread asking, “…do you think our once rightfully deserved reputation for making great machine tools will prompt U.S. machine tool companies to start making great machine tools here again?”
ctwo wrote:I rather see a long tortuous globalization process that more-or-less balances the global standard of living until cost differentials are moot.
I've been saying this for decades.
We used to make more than most of the world because we had the skills and people that made less than us are too far away. The world has gotten a LOT smaller, transportation costs have come down, everyone else's skills have gone up and some jobs don't even require anything to be shipped.
People thought being a doctor mean you job can't be shipped overseas, but don't tell that to the radiologist whose job of reading xrays, MRI's and CAT scans has been shipped to India. Ironically, the radiology technician's job is safe from export.
If you don't have your hands on the customer, your job can go anywhere.
A long time ago, a very knowledgeable person told me two things: 1) we were already able to buy Asian tools here that were as good as US-made tools , and 2) the Chinese were making superior tools we didn't get to see, because there was no market for them in the US.
As for Wendy's installing machines to replace workers, I've been predicting that for years, as has everyone else who was disgusted by the movement to force fast food joints to pay people over twice the minimum wage. Everyone with any common sense knew machines were cheaper and better than troublesome employees with a pathological sense of entitlement.
For a long time, I've been wondering why my local McDonald's doesn't have machines. The employees keep getting things wrong. It's very sad. If you can't stand still and listen long enough to get a McDonald's order right, with a computerized system to help you, what kind of job CAN you do? Think about this: forty years ago, fast food joints had no computers, yet they got our orders right almost every time. I remember those days. When they messed up, it was a real rarity. The people have changed.
To make things worse, many fast food joints now allow the kids to put guilt jars by the registers. They expect tips for punching buttons and letting customers carry their own food and clear their own tables. It may seem clever and PC now, but it won't seem clever at all when machines have replaced everyone. I tip waiters generously, but I won't give a penny to a cashier.
SteveHGraham wrote: It seems like the Chinese get better faster than they get more expensive.
The Chinese have been making tool room lathes to rival the Swiss for many years, they use them in China but they just don't get exported because by the time you get them to Europe or the USA they cost as much or more.
What everyone is calling Chinese Quality is in fact what the US and Europe importers have haggled down in price and quality to meet their sales model.
I totally agree!
For 10 years I battled our USA company's internal marketing department which was trying to lower product cost and decrease size, while we engineers were trying to design and produce quality life-saving equipment!
A thinking person would recognize that there should be NO quality compromises when building defibrillators, monitors, and other such medical equipment.
On the globalization subject, our new Subaru Outback is from a Japanese company, using both import and USA domestic parts, and assembled in the USA.
It is USA-built? Political definitions.
All Sanity reasons why I build steam locomotives...
~RN
NP317 wrote:...our new Subaru Outback is from a Japanese company, using both import and USA domestic parts, and assembled in the USA.
I've run across people that think that a Subaru is bad because it's Japanese, even though they are assembled in the USA, but they were fine with the Camaro being assembled in Canada.
When economists tally up the numbers, a trade deficit is offset by "foreign investment", making trade balance. Foreign investment is generally where we are trading domestic durable assets (real estate, operating companies) to make up for a lot of less durable assets that were imported (jeans, t-shirts and sneakers). I would leave it to someone else to reflect on the wisdom of this policy.
I am not so sure that globalization is inherently a bad idea, but that in its current incarnation it is not working out too favorably. A list of foreign owned brands that were "born and bred" in the U.S. would include Burger King, Armour and Wilson (meats), Heinz, Budweiser, and more. Note many of these are public companies, and likely have some U.S. ownership interests. But nonetheless I feel like we are slowly pawning the family jewels to keep ourselves fed and clothed.
To me, "globalization" means "pulling down America to make other nations look competitive." I think the Germans are learning about this in their experience keeping Greece afloat. Then there is the problem of encroaching international law, which conflicts with our way of life. The guys on the gunsmithing forum would no longer have anything to post about. They could open a confiscation forum, I guess.
History shows us that every empire rises and eventually falls and a new one rises somewhere else. The wealth and power follows the empires that rise. The pendulum is swinging and it may be a long time before it swings back again.
What everyone is calling Chinese Quality is in fact what the US and Europe importers have haggled down in price and quality to meet their sales model.
Exactly! I worked in consumer electronic, I invented the therm millipenny to be used as unity of measure for component price reduction. We used it jokingly to point out the senseless drive to saving mandated by management that in some cases turned out to be quite costly.
Anyway one day the discussion with a Chinese vendor went something like this: "Oh sure we can built it for that [ridiculous] price" the underlying concept was that you get what you pay for and they will cut corners at every opportunity.
Reviving American manufacturing to the level it was in the late 50's or early 60's is just not going to happen. It's a different world.
The 'enemy' is not globalization, it's automation. And it's nothing new.
In the 1950's, Leblond was selling a crankshaft lathe that not only machined an entire crankshaft in a single operation, it was self-loading.
I bought some nails a while back, and got curious about wire nail machines. Most of the ones I could find for sale are made in India. They run 24/7, with no human interaction. A person could run a nail factory single-handedly, provided you have some minor technical skill and are a good salesman.
In the 1980's, it took 25 workers to produce $1mm in goods; today it takes 5:
I still believe there is a market for good made-in-America machine tools. Back in 1939, you could buy an industrial quality Delta drill press (I have one) for around $40. Wages then were less than $1 and hour. Today, the same quality DP can cost maybe, $1000, but the wage level has also increased (not as rapidly as manufacturing costs). That DP would have taken a weeks wages to own and is still true today.
