where can I get and what should it cost me..........

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dgoddard
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Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:29 pm
Location: Lebanon MO

where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by dgoddard »

Let me start off with where I am.
about 15 years ago I got into this home machinist thing. I did not have then the budget that I have now, but by carefully shepherding my money I did come up with a decent lathe and a rather nice Lagun FTV2 10x54 variable speed milling machine which I was able to put into very good shape. And as I am sure all of you with any experience know that is just the start because of all the tools that need to go with those big ticket machines, and if you are a shrewd buyer and know a deal when you see one, those big machines can cost less than all the other "small stuff" to go with them plus all the general purpose tools that a decent shop needs.

And can one really do much of anything without a tap and die set????? My solution back when my budget was sparser was this.
Tap+Die_Set.JPG
I needed both metric and U.S. coarse and fine. That set is carbon steel, and hex dies and except for a few HSS taps that I bought for replacements it is 100% original It has threaded everything that I have built for the last 15 years except for a few ID and OD RH & LH lathe turned threads that I have single pointed. It cost me about $150 at the time. The US stuff is on the left and the Metric is on the right. At the moment I have to replace the 3/8-24 die which I broke a couple of teeth in chasing a thread on a Grade 8 bolt I was salvaging.

What I would like to do is replace this tap and die SET with an equivalent set in HSS taps and round-split dies.
I am looking for a SET ! Not bits and pieces! It does not suit me to have a drawer full of taps and dies I want a set! I.E. I want a an organized set all in one box. My reason for going to an new set is not because these are worn out but rather because I would like to be able to thread with taps and dies running on the lathe or mill instead of by slow hand power, and hopefully get some somewhat stronger taps and dies. (so far I have only broken a few taps and one die, so these are not to be scoffed at for their capability, but I would like a bit more and can afford it now ...... I think )

Allow me to say that I think Hanson has made an excellent product for the price and would heartily recommend this to anyone starting out on a limited budget, (And please do not try to tell me that the hex dies are only for rethreading as they cut very nice threads just as they are on most common materials). As to the matter of metric threads, when working on existing equipment I keep it strictly Inch on inch stuff and metric on metric stuff EXCLUSIVELY! i DO NOT CONDONE BASTARDIZED MIXED DIMENSIONAL PARTS, and I never tap out holes to switch them from Metric to U.S. or vice versa.

OK then, As I have a variety of die stocks and tap wrenched already. It would suffice me to get just the taps and dies either as a dual set or separate U.S. and Metric sets. but I am not particularly interested in just buying loose pieces unless there is such a big savings that I can justify making my own boxes to organize them. So then do any of you guys have any suggestions as to which supplier can meet my needs with a good product at a fair price [1].

[1]
Definition of a fair price: I really do get good quality and do not pay a high price just for a name.
I never met anybody that I couldn't learn something from.
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SteveHGraham
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Re: where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by SteveHGraham »

What are you willing to spend?

In order to have somewhere to start, I bought the 110-piece HSS set from Travers. I have never had a problem with it. I don't do a whole lot of tapping, so I'm not an authority, but I have no complaints about these tools. I tap by hand, and I back the taps up half a revolution when they stick. I don't know if they would be good for machine tapping. They definitely get tight sometimes, and for all I know, that is a quality issue.

The wrenches seem sturdy and well made.

The blow-molded case is annoying. If you pick the case up by the handle, the tools fall out of their places. Travers ships the case with a sheet of bubble wrap inside it, to hold things in place.

MSC has an Irwin HSS set for about the same price.

http://www.travers.com/60-piece-high-sp ... 2-000-105/
Every hard-fried egg began life sunny-side up.
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warmstrong1955
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Re: where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by warmstrong1955 »

For general purpose mechanic stuff, those Hanson sets aren't bad. I've got a couple, among other things.

For dies, I have found the round ones hold up better, than the hex. Greenfield Little Giant is a great one, and adjustable.

As far as taps, I very seldom buy hand taps. I buy gun taps (spiral point) and have for years. They move the chips to the end.
I've never seen a set however, so I pick them up as the needs arise, and order different sizes with outer orders I'm doing anyway.

My take...you have a complete set, or sets, and stuff that will do in a pinch.
Depends on how much money you want to spend.
Buy USA.
Buy HSS.
Taps....if you haven't used a gun tap, get a couple, and try 'em. I bet you will be like me, and want nothing less than gun taps after, other than for odds & ends where something else is required, like a spiral flute, or a hand tap will do.

I like Greenfield for dies.
I've done very well with Hertel gun taps, and they are quite economical, and easier on the wallet.

Shop a bit.....

:)
Bill
Today's solutions are tomorrow's problems.
pete
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Re: where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by pete »

I'm sure in agreement about buying good quality cutting tools. But to be honest few if maybe any really good manufacturers sell actual "sets" of taps and dies anymore from what I've seen. Or at least the tool dealers don't seem to list them. I'd mostly agree with Bill about the USA made though and Greenfield seems to get few if any dissatisfied users. I bought a Morse made HSS set of small taps and dies. They go from 0-80 up to 12-24. Previous to that my only experience was with a 1980's built set of Craftsman branded high carbon taps and dies. Those Craftsman branded ones were...............semi ok at best. A huge difference in thread quality with the Morse ones though. Then some years ago I ran across a group buy over on the HSM forum for a fairly large set of OSG dies in both imperial and metric. Neither the Morse or OSG's were at all cheap though. In fact both were damned expensive. But those OSG's really opened my eyes to what a top quality hss die could do even against the Morse. Guhring are supposed to be almost as good for taps and dies. I've been told by someone I trust 100% who worked in the tool & die industry that they tried many top quality tap manufacturers and never found anything that were quite as good as the OSG's.

But power tapping on a lathe or mill adds even more complication and cost. Idealy you'd want spiral point taps for the through holes and spiral flute for the blind holes. Then add in taper, plug and bottoming taps. Then just how large do you want to go? Even 1/4 x 20 up to 3/4 x 16 in both the coarse and fine pitches and the same for the metric equivelents is going to cost some big bucks. 2k-4k at least at a rough guess for even mid range HSS taps and dies. MSC has a list price of $78.00 + for one single 3/4 x 16 spiral point OSG tap. My best guess is you might have to decide on a brand, then start replacing your high carbon ones piece by piece with what you want. Bill also mentioned Hertel and they seem to get ok opinions over on the PM forums and those guys are pretty vocal about anything that doesn't perform. Years ago I worked with a logging camp mechanic who showed me his Greenfield tap and die sets that went from 6-32 up to 1" both course and fine and he never would tell me what they actally cost.
SteveM
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Re: where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by SteveM »

warmstrong1955 wrote:For dies, I have found the round ones hold up better, than the hex. Greenfield Little Giant is a great one, and adjustable.
I believe that the hex ones are "rethreading" dies, meant for cleaning up threads on an existing external thread. The hex shape allows you to use a wrench to turn it, as it may be in a location where you can't use a handle.

The geometry of them may be different than a die meant for first-pass threading and that may account for the difference in performance.

Steve
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tornitore45
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Re: where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by tornitore45 »

I second Bill plug (pun intended) for spiral taps. They are 2 flutes, therefore much stronger. They are recommended for through holes only but they work fine for blind holes if there is room for the chips or ones back it out and pick the chip out. In model works the bottom tap is often necessary.
I know you are set against loose taps and dies but i doubt you can find the performance you want in a set.
A shop made case allows for multiple configurations, the occasional left hand one, the proper drill and space for the inevitable build up of split threaded "homemade collets" used to chuck threaded parts.
Mauro Gaetano
in Austin TX
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Harold_V
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Re: where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by Harold_V »

SteveHGraham wrote: I don't know if they would be good for machine tapping.
Plain and simple. Hand taps are not suited to power tapping, although they will do an acceptable job if the thickness of the material is not excessive. They will serve perfectly well in machine applications, assuming you back the tap to break the chip, as one does when hand tapping. You have the added benefit of being able to follow the tap with a center, keeping it perpendicular.

Reason hand taps aren't suited for power tapping? It's exactly as Mauro said.

Straight cut flutes don't direct the chip. If you power tap with such taps, the flute gets loaded to the point of binding, resulting in either torn threads or a broken tap.

Take note that gun taps (spiral POINTED) taps have straight flutes, but the chip is generated by the spiral (point), which directs the chip in front of the tap. With a deep hole, or through hole, the tap can be driven without fear of loading and breaking. Spiral fluted taps remove the generated chip much he same way a twist drill does, so they aren't a problem for power tapping, either, although they tend to be somewhat more fragile than gun taps.

H
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SteveHGraham
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Re: where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by SteveHGraham »

When I was looking for taps, I found that there were two main choices: compromise or a huge expenditure of money. There was no such thing as a big assortment of HSS gun taps at a price I was willing to pay, and even if you get gun taps, what do you do when you tap a blind hole? Buy a whole new set of taps or drill a really deep hole.

I tap all sorts of holes with the Travers set, and I have had no problems whatsoever, but I do it all by hand, and judging from Harold's remarks, that's the only safe way with cheap taps. They almost always get stuck before the hole is finished, so if you can't back them out partway during the job, you may have problems. I can't tell you they'll break, because I have not yet been stupid enough to keep pushing one after it got stuck. I would rather tap a hole slowly than spend a week waiting for a new tap.

Here's my advice. If you don't mind hand-tapping and you have to have a set, try the Travers set. If you need to machine-tap, spend $1600 and get something better. If you look for Ebay bargains, it will take at least a year to accumulate anything resembling a set. If you buy Ebay taps one at a time and pay for shipping, you will turn a $1600 set into a $3000 set.

I found some lots of lightly used USA taps in a dozen or so sizes, and I also have two quality sets of gun taps in some common pitches. Combine them with my Chinese beauties, and it's good enough for my needs. When I have a special need, I bite the bullet and buy one tap.
Every hard-fried egg began life sunny-side up.
WJH
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Re: where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by WJH »

I only buy high quality taps in the size I need. I find cheap sets to be neither cheap, nor useable.
OSG, and Greenfield are the two I most commonly buy. In a pinch, I do go for the Irwins at the local hardware store, only because, "Git er Done"
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tornitore45
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Re: where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by tornitore45 »

When I started this addictive hobby I already had a fair number of junky taps in the most popular sizes, so there was no compelling reason to hurry in replacing and expanding the array. Early in the game I just had to place several online orders and added taps and dies as filler to reach the free shipping quota. That method spread out the expenses and matched the order to the project at hand. Slowly but surely I collected all the taps and dies I need and occasionally still use the junky tools when is not worth to wear a good one.
Mauro Gaetano
in Austin TX
Mr Ron
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Re: where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by Mr Ron »

I have always started out with a "set" of drill bits and replaced them as they got broken. I still have drill bits I bought 25 years ago that have never been used. Taps and dies are a different matter. A set of top quality taps and dies is too rich for most amateur machinists. I buy only the ones that I need and use regularly. It doesn't make sense to me to pay for something I may never use. Unless you are in a repair business where many different size threads are encountered, auto repair for example, then a complete set makes a lot of sense.
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi
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Dave_C
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Re: where can I get and what should it cost me..........

Post by Dave_C »

I hate to even offer this advise since it seems we are looking for something made in the USA but....

I bought a set of HSS round adjustable dies with fine and course threads from Grizzly for around $80.00 I think the range is 4/40 through 1/2". I can't complain about them and I have not broken any yet!

They offer them in both Imperial and Metric sets so buy both sets or get one of their combo set that they offer!

They are HSS and not carbon steel!

Dave C.
I learn something new every day! Problem is I forget two.
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