Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

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ctwo
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by ctwo » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:16 am

Well, I have not studied what Tormach specifies. What number was posted in the video, ±0.0013"? I do not recall what, or even if he specified his measurements.

Pushing on the table with the indicator is a procedure Bridgeport describes for adjusting the gibs. It's not linear to teh spindle, but rather rotational from the saddle to the table, and less than a thou.

pete, good point about the experience level.
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by SteveHGraham » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:24 am

Imagine, spending $11,000 on a machine and then finding out it had never been inspected. Even a pair of pants gets inspected at the factory.

There is no way I would go near a Tormach now, unless it were a used machine someone else had already fixed.

It's odd how Tormach has shifted the cost of dealing with defective machinery to the party who is least able to do anything about it and also least able to pay for it.

Tormach can do inspections cheaper and better than most buyers, and they can do it BEFORE THE CUSTOMER PAYS FOR SHIPPING. They ought to raise the price a hundred bucks and look the machines over.

Tormach could pay someone to inspect each machine. Then when machines fail, they could call their Chinese manufacturer and say, "This one is going back," and the manufacturer would have to eat it, as they should. Instead, the customer is the one who gets to sit on the rusty nail.
Every hard-fried egg began life sunny-side up.

John Hasler
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by John Hasler » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:36 am

> Even a pair of pants gets inspected at the factory.

Not the brands that I can afford. I doubt that any consumer product gets 100% inspection.

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SteveHGraham
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by SteveHGraham » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:24 pm

So you've never found those little inspection tags in new clothing. I've found lots of them.
Every hard-fried egg began life sunny-side up.

Mr Ron
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by Mr Ron » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:10 pm

Even items made for the military do not get a 100% inspection. They have a schedule (Mil-Std-105) that takes a random sampling , say one out of 50 and that is given a thorough going over. If it passes, then all 50 pass automatically, but if a certain percentage of that batch fails inspection, the whole batch is rejected. This is probably the most stringent of inspections because it is for the military.

There are those items that if they were to fail, would mean death or catastrophic failure, such as a jet engine. These require 100% inspection. That is why standards and sampling rates are so important.

Today, a large amount of inspection is done by computer sensors, cameras and robots, replacing humans, but there are still some areas where human inspection is still necessary. What it boils down to is: inspection is the best place to save money, from a manufacturer's perspective; a false premise to say the least.
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi

John Hasler
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by John Hasler » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:07 pm

MrRon writes:
> There are those items that if they were to fail, would mean death or catastrophic failure, such as a jet engine.
> These require 100% inspection. That is why standards and sampling rates are so important.


The QC manager at Sarns, Inc (heart-lung machines: everything went through qc) said "There is no such thing as 100% inspection."

> Today, a large amount of inspection is done by computer sensors, cameras and robots...

Much better than manual inspection for stuff such as hardware, cables, etc.

RONALD
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by RONALD » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:49 pm

My Harrison VS 330TR which I bought from REM Corp. in 1994 came with an inspection booklet.

Here it is, again, in case any of you want to perform such a detailed inspection.

Their measurements are metric.

I can only rely on the high reputations of REM and Harrison, at that time, for its authenticity.

Harrison is no-longer sold in the USA.

REM now handles Tsugami: https://www.remsales.com/
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by Harold_V » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:48 pm

SteveHGraham wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:24 pm
So you've never found those little inspection tags in new clothing. I've found lots of them.
I'm amazed that the tags are still with the clothing when the items get to Goodwill! :P

H
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by SteveHGraham » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:18 pm

Not funny at all. I would never stoop to shopping at Goodwill. I'll have you know it's the Salvation Army.
Every hard-fried egg began life sunny-side up.

pete
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by pete » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:37 pm

Tormach checking 1 in 20 machines or not, the real issues in that video are what was actualy causing the problem isn't it? It's obvious it had faults it shouldn't have. So were they a simple fix or not? Anyone think Moore Tools, Schaublin, Mori, Deckel or any other high end machine tool manufacturer never once shipped a machine out with a slight problem that somehow got missed by a whole lot better QC procedures? Maybe even a few that even needed to get returned back to the factory for correction? So far only one single Tormach rep has said that they only check 1in 20 machines. As I said that may or may not be the real facts. It wouldn't surprise me if it were true, but that being correct still isn't known to be 100% factual at this point. And unless that machine in the YT video were to show up in another video by Tormach clearly showing what the full causes of it's problems are it's at best second guessing it was a major and not a simple and minor factory fault that got missed because of what we think at this point is poor QC procedures. I've also said a slightly loose gib and ball screw nut mounting bolts could create that exact problem. That might be a good guess or not. But let's say for now I could be right. Tormach and the manufacturer that's building there machines are still at fault. But it would then make that video poster look a bit foolish for sending it back for something he could have fixed in a couple of hrs. Should he have to? No of course not, but I sure spent a lot more time than that cleaning, checking, adjusting and tuning my BP clone when I got it. And I'd do exactly the same on a Tormach machine if I ever bought one. I'm now not naive enough to expect perfection when I'm buying at the lower end of the scale so running my own checks and if needed some adjustments is just part of that.

I'm also not saying the video poster was at fault either. But I have noticed that a whole lot of highly talented people who convert machines to cnc and a lot of users of cnc machines on Youtube jumped into it real quick. And a lot of them on there videos clearly show they haven't learned even some of the basics you would learn after years of running manual machines. Saying that I'm more than a bit envious of there computer and electrical knowledge and abilities. A program or electrical fault in that machine would be one thing, that machines problems were mechanical and I think proved as such on the video. But little to nothing seemed to have been done other than a few rudimentry gib adjustments I seem to recall after the video poster talked with Tormach. Again as I said I wouldn't have hesitated in pulling the table after getting the proper procedure from Tormach for doing that so the ball nut's balls werent lost out of the nuts. It seems to me that the machine was almost instantly judged as being junk far too quickly and then shipped back without doing even some basic mechanical checks first. Why? That could be for multiple unknown reasons or just what the video poster stated. Too many here seem to be taking that whole video at it's face value and on only what it shows and says. I think I've now lived and finally learned enough to say that real life is never that simple. If it's a mechanical problem with anything I've bought I'm sure as hell going to nail down what the exact causes are as best I can before I make a definate decision about sending it back. It seems to me that it took almost no time at all to decide to send that one back and then order up a machine that cost more than 4 times as much almost immediately. That little detail sure raises some questions with me about why there was so little time taken and problem analyis actualy done and what all the facts really are. Ok the video poster said the machine was bought for making commercial parts at low quantity's. That's still no reason not to take a couple of hrs to try and figure out a problem. That whole video may be just what it seems and is saying, but my gut feeling is there's a whole lot more to it than that.

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ctwo
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by ctwo » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:48 am

SteveHGraham wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:24 pm
So you've never found those little inspection tags in new clothing. I've found lots of them.
Imagine, spending $11 on a pair of jeans and then discovering the inspection tag is as worthless as Tormach's inspection sheet! :lol:
Standards are so important that everyone must have their own...
To measure is to know - Lord Kelvin
Disclaimer: I'm just a guy with a few machines...

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ctwo
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Re: Inspection Sheets: Worthless?

Post by ctwo » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:58 am

I agree pete. It does seem it was more of he just not wanting the Tormach anymore, for some reason. That might have been discovery that he wanted performance at the edge of the machine's ability, and that meant only the operator's skill could get there. Things were likely lacking a bit on both sides. There was once a quote about blaming the tool...
Standards are so important that everyone must have their own...
To measure is to know - Lord Kelvin
Disclaimer: I'm just a guy with a few machines...

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