Twist drill prices

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liveaboard
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Re: Twist drill prices

Post by liveaboard »

SteveHGraham wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:02 am goods would be cheaper overseas even if our taxes were the same as everyone else's.
But goods are MUCH cheaper in the US; practically everything is cheaper. Dutch cheese is cheaper in the US than in Holland!
Only medicine +health care is more expensive on that side of the pond.

Of course we would all like zero taxes, but most of us want some government services; while there have been some experiments with other systems of government financing, tax has emerged as the least bad.

So, given that something has to be paid, the question is how much.

According to prevailing US thought on the matter, Europe should be stuck in the middle ages due the the high tax rates, with economic growth pretty much impossible.
According to European financial perception, the US should have collapsed long ago, unable to recover due to lack of government funding.

In reality, the economies seem to move in sync, with similar growth rates and recession / recovery periods.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating either setup as "better" than the other.

As a US citizen residing in the EU, I have to file taxes in both [I'm not double taxed, but I have to do the accounting]. I know the difference better than most people.
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Re: Twist drill prices

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That is something in itself. I'll cut it quick and to the bone. You are like my best neighbor far away.
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Twist drill prices

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liveaboard wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:00 pm But goods are MUCH cheaper in the US; practically everything is cheaper.
Not correct. SOME things are cheaper here, and others are much more expensive. There is a huge grey market industry in the US, proving that many goods are cheaper overseas. It would not be possible to make money selling grey market products if this were not true. Americans buy medicine from Canada because wholesale prices are lower there. Clothing is cheaper overseas. I've gotten huge discounts on lines like Belvest from dealers who bought in Egypt. I bought a subwoofer way below the US price, from a well-known grey market retailer. There is a perfume chain called Perfumania that owes its existence to the lower cost of perfume overseas. Yamaha has big problems with people importing pianos from countries where they cost less.

I used to work as a patent attorney, and my firm represented manufacturers who were taking a huge beating from the grey market. For example, they wanted to sell Cool Water cologne for a certain price, and grey market stores were selling it for much, much less. The grey market people bought it in countries that got huge discounts simply because the manufacturer couldn't stick it to them the way it did Americans.
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Re: Twist drill prices

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The grey market stuff is mostly counterfeit, fake. Even if it's not, it's smuggled, tax evaded; Your comparison makes no sense.
Compare real prices paid by real people, with local taxes, like for like.
I live in Europe, I pay European prices for goods and services.
Tell me which commodities are cheaper here, I want to know.

Maybe wine [maybe not], health care for sure. Every other thing costs more in Europe as far as I know.
I mean, I'm sure you could find something, if you really look. Believe me, it will require some effort.

Ok, tomorrow I'll look around for the receipt from the drill bits recently purchased.
If I find it, maybe we can return to topic.
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Re: Twist drill prices

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The grey market stuff is mostly counterfeit, fake. Even if it's not, it's smuggled, tax evaded; Your comparison makes no sense.
Not true at all. Much of it is the real thing, and it is bought, imported, and sold 100% legally. You're talking to a former patent attorney who dealt with these matters on the job.
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Re: Twist drill prices

Post by warmstrong1955 »

SteveHGraham wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:38 pm
The grey market stuff is mostly counterfeit, fake. Even if it's not, it's smuggled, tax evaded; Your comparison makes no sense.
Not true at all. Much of it is the real thing, and it is bought, imported, and sold 100% legally. You're talking to a former patent attorney who dealt with these matters on the job.
Without a doubt not true.
There are lots of grey market excavators around. Hitachi, Komatsu, and even Cat. Some are the same, and even identical as the 'real thing'....many are not. Some are easy to get parts for...and some, due to the fact they 'don't exist', are not.
Things you learn when you are an equipment dealer. These machines bypass regular dealer importing, come without any warranties, which, for obvious reasons, makes them cost less. They are not smuggled, and not fake, ie; the EX120's were built by Hitachi, and were the same as the EX100....almost. All real, and all legal. Most that I saw coming in were not new, but very low hours, like 500 or less.

Bill
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Re: Twist drill prices

Post by SteveHGraham »

You're agreeing with me? I'm opening the champagne. Where is my can opener...

The parts and warranty issue is real. The manufacturers generated it in order to fight back. I don't worry too much about it when buying a jacket, however. Some companies that sell grey market stuff have their own warranties.
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warmstrong1955
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Re: Twist drill prices

Post by warmstrong1955 »

SteveHGraham wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:31 pm You're agreeing with me? I'm opening the champagne. Where is my can opener...

The parts and warranty issue is real. The manufacturers generated it in order to fight back. I don't worry too much about it when buying a jacket, however. Some companies that sell grey market stuff have their own warranties.
Yes....one of those rare occurrences.....
Hope it's not a hari kari moment for you.... ;)

Hitachi, I worked for a dealer, there were no warranties on the grey market stuff from the factory. All I know were sold as is. Komatsu, was the same. May or may not be the same now....that was in the 90's.
Parts....hard to look up a serial number of a machine to get the right part, when the model number does not exist in the system. Most grey market machines have a S/N that is different than normal, even if they have the same model number. Lot of parts were common, but not all. It was a crap shoot. We sold many 'genuine' parts for them around the state.

Made it easy for the manufacturers to get rid of discontinued, or obsoleted parts. Some, like main valves & hydraulic pumps....not cheap. No warranty. You bought it....you own it type of thing.

Bill
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Re: Twist drill prices

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So you're saying that in the US, you can sometimes buy things even cheaper than in other places in the US; and therefore you pay more [in the US] than consumers do for those products outside the US?

Ok, got it.
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Re: Twist drill prices

Post by warmstrong1955 »

liveaboard wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:00 pm So you're saying that in the US, you can sometimes buy things even cheaper than in other places in the US; and therefore you pay more [in the US] than consumers do for those products outside the US?

Ok, got it.
I'm not comparing to other countries....just within the US. Or Canada for that matter. Mexico is different....you have to bribe the customs guys.... ;)
If you go searching for a EX100 excavator, the price at Big Sky Equipment is not going to be the same as Lone Star equipment.
And if you buy a EX120....it's almost just about practically identical maybe sorta some nearly....to an EX100.....but with no warranty....and no dealer coverage....but will be cheaper than Big Sky & Lone Star on a comparable EX100. They look the same, have the same specs....but one is off by 20 to the other on the decal.
Same pricing deal will hold true to a EX120. Vinnie the Equipment Guy will sell one at a different price than Under The Table Excavators, or Excavators R Us.

:)
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Re: Twist drill prices

Post by SteveHGraham »

liveaboard wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:00 pm So you're saying that in the US, you can sometimes buy things even cheaper than in other places in the US; and therefore you pay more [in the US] than consumers do for those products outside the US?

Ok, got it.
I'm not sure what that means.

I'm saying US retailers can buy things overseas cheaper than they can here, because those things cost less in other countries. This is the foundation of the grey market.

Example: instead of buying a piano from an authorized Yamaha distributor in America, you buy from a distributor in the Philippines or some other place in Asia, where Yamahas cost less. Then you ship it here and resell it to consumers for less money than the same product costs at an authorized dealer.

My firm represented Davidoff. They sued a company that sold Davidoff Cool Water cologne on the grey market. It was real Davidoff cologne. They were able to sell it here for less than authorized dealers could, because the price was so much lower overseas.

Most Americans who buy Cool Water pay an inflated price just because they're Americans. They buy from authorized resellers who pay more than foreigners. A few people who know about the grey market pay less. Davidoff doesn't like that. They want to overcharge ALL Americans.

Maybe this will make it understandable: Macy's is an authorized Davidoff dealer. Right now, you will pay $73 for 4.2 ounces of Cool Water Eau de Toilette if you buy it at Macy's. Perfumania is a grey market dealer. You will pay them $40 for the same bottle.

People in places like Ethiopia and India can't pay what Americans can, so some manufacturers charge them less. Grey market businesses buy their products in countries that get a better deal, and then they sell them here at higher prices which still seem like bargains to Americans.
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Re: Twist drill prices

Post by liveaboard »

You think that stuff sourced from from Africa and India isn't counterfeit??
I lived in India for 20 years.
As the Buddha said, life is but an illusion.


Twist drill pries;

[gasp!] on topic!

I get a 40% discount on the list price from my favorite shop here in Portugal; I'm a regular but not at all a big customer.
Including our draconian sales tax, german made 'Heller' 10mm cobalt bits $5 each
8mm cobalt bits, $2.25 each

I don't have the receipt for the little bits [4,5,and 6mm] I buy in packs of 10, but I remember them being very reasonable.
Also the big HSS mt2 and mt3 drill bits, 25 - 30mm $15 to $20.

The 40% discount is because of the huge markup on small items like drill bits.

The manufacturing cost of this sort of item has come way down in the last few years, and some retailers have dropped their prices to match.
Others have not.

update; found an old receipt for small bits.
on packs of 10 I only get a 10% discount [probably because the list price is already discounted]
10x 'Heller' German 6.5mm cobalt drill bits; $12
10x 5mm bits; $8
10x 4mm bits; $4.50
10x 2.5mm bits; $4

These are actual total prices I paid.
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