HEIGHT Gauge question

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Harold_V
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by Harold_V » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:34 pm

GlennW wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:30 am
You'd have some pretty significant cosine error with the gauge set up like you have it in the first pic.
Yep! And a loss of sensitivity with the angle chosen. Those long shanks don't like side pressure. Best choice is a DTI, with the finger kept as near parallel to the body of the indicator as would be possible for the given setup. That limits cosine error. Inspection, where I was trained, liked the Interapid. My personal choice would be a B&S BesTest.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

wally318
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by wally318 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:41 pm

Harold. I just gave a light rub with the scotchbrite 2 revs each direction on both top and bottom side
of each ring, using some WD40 as a cleaner/lubricant. I was well aware of the risks of damaging.
There was a bit of haze on the surface of the rings-thinner didn't clean as nicely as I hoped.

Your input re: DTI is duly noted and appreciated.
I got on the ebay and found me a deal on a nice
Starrett last word dti in .0001".

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BadDog
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by BadDog » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:26 pm

If that's the classic "last word" style, you might be better served to choose a B&S or similar style DTI. Early on in my education I acquired a few Starrett Last Word indicators and not one worked well enough for even my newbie use. Generally not repeatable and tended to be "sticky". To be sure some seemed to like them, but all the used ones I put my hands on are not what I wanted after I first used a Best Test. Now the Last Words are thankfully long gone from my collection which currently includes a variety of Best Test along with a similar style Swiss Tessa and an Interapid (that I actually don't care for because it works "backward"). If I was given a brand new Last Word for free (only way I would get one), I would give it away to the first person who expressed an interest in it...
Russ
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Harold_V
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by Harold_V » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:09 am

I've never used a Starrett .0001" indicator, so I don't have an opinion, but if it's made like the .001" Last Word, I have more than a few opinions on them, none of them complimentary. The vast majority of my precision instruments are Starrett, and they have served me exceedingly well. You might say I'm a Starrett person, much like one would be a Dodge person (as opposed to a Ford person), so it's safe to say I like Starrett, but not their .001" Last Word.

BadDog nailed it perfectly, and I"ve been bitten by the same thing, even after returning my Last Word (which I still have) to Starrett to be repaired. They lose sensitivity if the ruby finger leaves the helix, and it's real easy to knock it out.

By sharp contrast, I've even dropped one of my BesTest indicators, and it still works perfectly well. The only thing that has gone wrong with any of the three I own is that one of them has a loose crystal. Damned thing shrunk, and after only about 45 years. You just can't buy good quality these days!

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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wlw-19958
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by wlw-19958 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:23 am

Hi There,

A while back, I had a nice 711F "Last Word" indicator calibrated
in tenths and it had a sticky point in its travel. I sent it in to
Starrett's repair department and they refused to repair it (stating
that they didn't have parts for it and therefore didn't repair
them anymore).

They did offer to me their newer model (a 708 in tenths) for
50% of retail price. I went for it and it is a nice indicator!
It isn't anything like the old 711 model (it resembles the
B&S BesTest® model closely). The only down side was that
my cased 711F had an attachment for a height gauge that
wasn't included with the cased set for the 708 and I had
to pay extra to get that.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Inspector
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by Inspector » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:52 pm

I'm partial to Mitutoyo indicators. We had them almost exclusively where I worked. Many that were there when I started were still good after 27 years when I left.

Pete

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BadDog
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by BadDog » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:09 pm

You have to be careful with Mitutoyo (well, most any brand these days). They have different grades. Some years back, being very happy with all Mits I had my hands on, I bought a very nice clean "as new" Mits large face 0.0001 DTI for what I thought was a very good deal without much thought. After all, it was Mitutoyo. Unfortunately, had I looked closer, I would have seen that the details (fit, edges, finish) looked more HF that Mit. That thing is "rough as a cob" as my grandfather would have said. At first I thought maybe it was a knock off, but apparently not. It's not junk, it is repeatable and appears accurate within expectations for such a device, but not in the same league as Best Test and the like. I dislike it so much it's the one that lays out all the time on the machines (lathe or mill) for convenience. If it gets broken, I didn't pay much, and haven't lost much.
Russ
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Inspector
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by Inspector » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:25 pm

Well the company bought from local industrial suppliers and not from eBay/Amazon so there were no short cuts taken on the price. If Mitotoyo and others now have "consumer" grade products I haven't run into them but I'm not out buying more. If I were I'd likely go to the industrial supplier here so I can look at it before I take it home and bring it back if something is wrong with it later. We all have preferences depending what we used in our careers.

Pete

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BadDog
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by BadDog » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:34 pm

I completely agree. My only point was that in the modern corporate/brand raider MBA economy, you can't really trust any brand name to necessarily guarantee any quality level. Like Jacobs and others, the brands can become worthless from one month to the next with little fanfare, which is what the raiders are counting on as they milk the names for record profits before discarding the empty husk. While Mitutoyo still has a quality name today, only somewhat diluted by lower quality lines to prop up profits (like Starrett), tomorrow they may go the way of B&S, Stanley, and Jacobs. Bought and gutted by someone who knows no more than how to "leverage the brand".
Russ
Master Floor Sweeper

pete
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by pete » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:08 pm

Whenever I'm buying any new metrology equipment I now usually check the Long Island Dial Indicator Repair website. They have extensive recommendations for most of the items were likely to be using. However they don't think much of almost any dti on the market today. But like others have mentioned the Best Test's get higher marks than almost anything else. I've read a few threads where people say there Starrett Last Words work just fine but that almost seems to be random luck and not something you can count on.

100% in agreement about that MBA mentality BadDog. Your Jacob's mention is a perfect example. And B & S is a pale shadow of what it once was. A few years ago I decided to buy a brand new Starrett old school marking gauge. For what it's total price was seeing a large run in the black paint they use now instead of the original color case hardening and not even having the ball tip anymore for parking the curved tip was extremely disappointing. That very obvious paint run should never have made it through QC. I now regret not finding a decent used one. Starrett wants $158 for there simple no. 62 rule holder. Anyone can zoom in on it on there website and that clearly shows it's very poorly finished including the surface grinding. Abom79 on YouTube sent his No. 62 back to Starrett for regrinding since the bottom was warped, I think it was even worse after Starrett did the repair. And like you say Mitutoyo now doesn't seem to be immune to that cost cutting at any price mentality either. I bought one of there very good and expensive Digimatic ID-F series indicators. Opening the cardboard box revealed a blow molded ultra thin styrene folded and possibly ok for shipping it, but completely useless storage box. For the multiple times it cost over any dial or dti indicator I expected far better. The indicator itself is great, but saving possibly .50 cents on a minimal box for it? An email to Mitutoyo's corporate headquarters asking if they made and sold anything better for it was ignored. It's well past time these large corporations figured out there changing business methods really aren't working. Firing a few of those bean counters would lower the prices and allow better quality imo. :-)

Harold_V
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by Harold_V » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:50 pm

pete wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:08 pm
I've read a few threads where people say there Starrett Last Words work just fine but that almost seems to be random luck and not something you can count on.
Their opinion is valueless. Here's why:
I was using my Last Word to achieve zero runout, on a grinding job. I figured it wouldn't be deadly accurate, but figured it would narrow down the error such that when I shifted to the electronic indicator, there was a chance that I was in tolerance (.0002" TIR). I was floored when I discovered almost a thou error, yet the needle of the Last Word indicator showed no movement.

It's simple. It's like hearing. If you can't hear a sound, you don't know you're not hearing it. If an indicator shows no movement, by your measure, there isn't any. An instrument that isn't capable of performing its intended task isn't worth owning.

H
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pete
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Re: HEIGHT Gauge question

Post by pete » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:53 pm

Yep and that's why I value having a set of gauge blocks Harold. Having the ability of actually testing most items and how well they measure and repeat is worth a great deal to me. Not to throw this thread OT, but I've read multiple dozens of statements on other forums where new people are advised that dirt cheap work & tool holding, cutting tools and metrology equipment is all any home shop needs. The U.K. forums seem especially bad for doing that. I always wonder if those saying so have ever once tried anything better. "Some" of it might be passable, some needs reworking until it is, and I've got some that was a real waste of money. There's multiple YT videos out there clearly showing a lot of the cheap equipment can't and wont do what some think it can. That Starrett Last Word isn't exactly cheap, and from what's been said the original design was faulty to begin with. If the equipment can't be depended on to do the job it was bought for then as you say it's not worth owning. Surprisingly for my average luck I somehow dodged the Last Word buying error.

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