Shop Build (help appreciated!)

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BadDog
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by BadDog » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:41 am

I've got a bunch of Solatubes in my house and shop. They are just as great as described. People remind me to turn off the lights, but they are not on. Love 'em.
Russ
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SteveHGraham
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by SteveHGraham » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:12 am

What happens when you replace your roof? More expensive?
Every hard-fried egg began life sunny-side up.

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BadDog
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by BadDog » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:46 am

I just did about 2 years ago, and no, no extra expense was allocated for the tubes. It's really no different than a turbine or vent or other piercing.
Russ
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SteveM
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by SteveM » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:15 pm

SteveHGraham wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:01 am
Wondering what the best shape for a shop is. My guess is that a square is better than a rectangle.
I would go with rectangular, unless you want a large assembly / work table in the middle of the room, or you have a table saw.

With square, you might end up with a large chunk of wasted floor space in the middle of the room, although you could put the lathes and mills front to back in the middle.

My brother's shop is rectangular, but close to square, but he has a large cabinet saw in the middle and he uses the middle of the room to put stuff together.

Steve

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seal killer
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by seal killer » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:48 pm

All--

The shop is not set in stone . . . that's why I'm here getting advice. I really like the idea of a gantry crane. Originally, it was a "must-have" in the shop. The house took so long to finish that I forgot about the crane. I'll stick it back in the plan.

In the past, I've always had my vise, rotary table and a few other heavy things sitting on tables the same height as the mill. To get the heavy RT to the mill, I'd simply crank the mill table towards the Gladiator roll-away that held the RT and then slid it over the to mill. Same for the vise.

I'll do the same this time. I DO NOT plan to carry either one! They--especially the RT--were heavy three years ago. I'm sure they are even heavier now. :)

The floor of the shop will have the same radiant heating and cooling as the house, I just need to patch it into the system. All the components are in place. I will insulate, insulate, insulate.

--Bill
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pete
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by pete » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:54 pm

Maybe for some it doesn't bother them, after all the years of running large diesels at full power I happen to enjoy quiet. Every large repair / machine shop I've been in had either a dedicated sound insulated room for the large compressors or it was in an attached but outside shed. Even at our smaller scale needs I'd certainly think of putting any compressor, shop vac or dust collector system outside the main shop. And if you've got a decent compressor Bill I sure wouldn't skimp on the number of hard line drops, adding oil and water separators etc. Twice as many electrical outlets than you think you'll need is usually about right. And the same for lighting.

Once finished my benches will end up in a large U shape around the perimeter of my 10.5' x 11.5' shop. Even though I do very little woodworking I'm still adding a standard off the shelf transparent pipe system they use to hook up to the usual shop vac with about 4-5 plug in points for the vac hose. I'll add the same number of compressed air and electrical outlets at the same points and run everything behind the benches and only run the vac, electrical and air points out to where they can be plugged into every 6'-8'. So there should be few reasons for any extension cords, air lines etc all over the floor. My view is vacuuming up the smaller chips first off the machines makes a lot more sense that blowing the equipment off with compressed air and then having to vacuum or sweep them up later.

A pita to have to walk a decent distance every time just to sharpen a tool for 30 seconds, but I'd also make sure to have any grinding equipment removed as far as you can from the machine tools. Tying the vacuum into those would be well worth it as well. If you do any woodworking then there's the obvious fire hazard with both materials being vacuumed up of course. I'm also not real enthused about wall hanging tools that have repeatable locating surfaces out in the open like lathe tool holders, collets, tool shanks etc. I don't see much point in having to first wipe down those tool surfaces before you can use them. There's good reasons the higher end machine tool manufacturers like Hardinge, Moore had collet etc storage behind doors in the machine or for Moore a large and separate stand alone tool storage cabinet. I've also yet to see any commercial shop that was even close to having an excessive amount of dedicated tool storage space. The more you can add the easier things will be later. No doubt I can think of a few more things later that will spend some more of your money. :-)

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seal killer
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by seal killer » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:25 pm

pete--

How ya been? Well, I pray.

I have a wimpy compressor, but it serves my needs. I'll add air plumbing to the walls, that will eliminate the problem I've tolerated in the past of having to step over hoses now and then.

I'm big on having enough electrical outlets. Shop vac plumbing is something I had not thought of but I should have: It's a natural. I always vacuum the lathe and mill and saws and grinder area.

--Bill
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pete
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by pete » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:32 pm

Hey Bill. Eh I'm ok or ok enough I guess. :-) You?

Probably redundant, but don't forget to slope those air lines for possible water drainage. A good air dryer should eliminate that, but you guys get a whole lot more humidity down there than I do. Having a few strategically placed air drops from the ceiling is I think a good idea as well. And that in floor heat in the shop will be great. Forced air heating still blows in or around enough dust to be a pain. Also before you move a single piece into that new shop figure out what your going to use on the floor. Hot chips makes that a tough choice though. Sealing the concrete isn't optional imo. Right now my shop floor is covered with sheets of particle board, certainly not the most durable choice. But it's saved some dings and dents with dropped parts & tooling. I've kicked the idea around of using heavier but still standard hardwood flooring and putting up with the inevitable wear and tear on it just to have something easy on anything dropped and the feet.

Only a thought, but I've seen more than a few mentions of doing it on a lot of wood working forums and even Norm Abrams mentioned it some years ago. A lot of them advocate sheeting all the walls in the shop with 3/4" ply as the main wall sheeting or under what you'll use on the walls. That way you can hang just about anything anywhere you want without being locked into the 16" OC stud spacing and it drastically stiffens up the walls if you are hanging or bolting anything heavy enough to them.

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seal killer
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by seal killer » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:39 pm

pete--

Me, good. :)

I plan to use 3/4" OSB on the interior walls. That should allow me to hang (lighter) stuff wherever.

Thanks for the air hints. I'll be sure to come back here for more guidance on that issue when I actually get to it.

You know, I hadn't actually thought about the concrete floor, other than sealing it. Maybe I'll never drop anything again?

--Bill
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pete
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by pete » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:55 pm

Good to hear that Bill.

Some of the fairly expensive air line kit manufacturer's have quite a bit of information about recommended line sizes, runs, percentage of slope, clean outs, water traps etc on there websites. There's also some half decent Youtube videos showing what there using for systems and brands. With commercial high daily use probably the standard black iron pipe is just fine. In a home shop with variable use I dunno. Rust if you start getting it could become a real head ache and end up with having to replace it anyway. Line size is another big issue. Flow is only part of it. If your system is really well sealed then moving up to a 3/4" or even 1" line size allows a hell of a lot more stored volume than the little 1/2" line has before the compressor kicks in again. Fittings for that larger line size do jump up in price pretty quickly though. If you can afford it? 3/4" or 1" copper with soldered connections eliminates that possible rust and those solder joints are always going to remain leak free over most threaded one's given enough time. It also works great as a heat exchanger so any moisture in the air drops out better. I don't know of any cheap air line quick couplers that don't start leaking almost right away. Those are where you can't afford to pinch pennies. Compressed air is one of the most expensive forms of stored power you can use and constant leaks will cost a whole lot more than good quick couplers. I've not used them yet, but those newer air line kits that use coated aluminum line are supposed to be pretty good. They seem to come with a price to match of course. Doing it in larger copper still might be a lot more expensive.

Possibly if you hold your tongue just right and do so permanently then yeah maybe you won't drop anything again. If that doesn't work then I'd plan on a light colored floor or you'll be forever losing lots of small parts and tools. :-) I have noticed on Youtube that for a lot of the guys in Europe it seems fairly common to use large floor tiles over there concrete floors in there home shops. Easy to sweep or vacuum clean, but it's still hard on anything dropped. And if heavy enough permanent damage to the floor and part or tool. The mines I've worked at the truck shops all use a lot of heavy conveyor belting on the floors, but used belting is easy to get and free for them. It's also nice to stand on for long periods of time.

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tornitore45
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by tornitore45 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:52 am

My guess is that a square is better than a rectangle.
Possibly, but that would not be my choice.
A central working island like in a kitchen, would have access all around of dubious value consuming floor space.
Wall space is very valuable in a shop, for shelves and hanging stuff.
Once the small dimension is sufficient to accommodate working stations on opposite walls then the total area would be covered by extending the length. Even an L shaped concept can be useful for partial segregation of wood and metal or metal cutting versus grinding.
All depends on what the end product is. I make models, all small stuff and has no need to bring in a 4000 pound machine or lift the engine out of a truck.
Dealing with large item is a different story.
Mauro Gaetano
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SteveM
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Re: Shop Build (help appreciated!)

Post by SteveM » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:03 am

The most efficient perimeter wall for the floor space is a circle, but nobody is going to believe that's the best shop shape. Wall space is important.

One story on grinding: I went to Marcovicci-Wenz engineering on Long Island a number of years ago. The shop was one large room and there was a small room over on the side. I asked Pete Marcovicci if that was the "clean room". He said: "no, that's the 'dirty room'; the entire shop is the 'clean room'".

Consider having a separate enclosed room for all grinding / buffing. Doors with weatherstripping and a ventilation system separate from the shop would be optimal. I am currently reconfiguring my entire shop, and while I don't have the space for a separate room, I will put the surface grinder, the belt sanders and grinders on their own bench in the corner with a curtain that I can close to reduce airborne particulate movement. I have a window near that area and will put an exhaust fan in the window.

Steve

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