Mill and Lathe Recommendations for High School Machine Shop

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SteveR
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Re: Mill and Lathe Recommendations for High School Machine Shop

Post by SteveR » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:40 pm

What are the goals of the class? Align your tools to meet those goals. In my introductory HS class(that I took, not taught), some of our projects used hand tools. Do you have a syllabus? I would assume it looks something like (for introductory class):
A) Blueprint reading - dimensions and tolerances.
B) Measuring and laying out
C) Hand tools for cutting and bending (and sheet metal projects)
D) Machine drilling
E) Fasteners and tapping/threading
F) Machine milling
G) Lathe and turning
H) Casting and pattern making - we had a number of simple patterns, we would ram them up and the teacher would pour aluminum.
I) Welding and soldering
J) CNC and 3D printing - capture their imagination - and 3D printers are dirt cheap.

A couple of weeks for each thing and you have a 20 week introductory semester.
My 2 cents is to buy a number of smaller machines so that when something breaks, there are duplicates.

Good luck!
SteveR
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pete
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Re: Mill and Lathe Recommendations for High School Machine Shop

Post by pete » Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:25 am

The main question is what is the budget? Without those numbers it's an impossible to properly answer question. When I was in HS part of the entry level requirement was a semester of drafting, electrical, and then the metal and wood shop classes. Then the first few classes of theory put the horse in front of the cart. And if I recall what I saw some students doing safety needs to be hammered home with a blunt club if needed. A 12" swing 220V lathe has ample power to permanently maim or do worse. And unlike how I was being taught, how not to crash a machine should be almost the same priority as that safety. And penalty's need to be set for crashing one. Dedicated floor sweeping for a few classes might do it. 3N1 machines and any of the used old classic machines aren't anything remotely close to what any manual industrial machine shop represents today. So they shouldn't even be considered for any possible short term cost savings. It's also possible to teach the basics on those 12" swing lathes and BP sized mills and still teach cnc on a lot smaller and much cheaper cnc machines made for education. The UK seems to have a few industrial level manufacturer's who build smaller equipment for those exact reasons.There still not exactly cheap but are a whole lot cheaper than even Tormach or anything Haas as the next level up makes.

A few manual machines 12" swing lathes, and close or at a Bridgeport size teaches the manual machining basics, your going to need those cnc machines now or as soon as possible to make any course being taught somewhat current to today's real world shop equipment. It's also not just the initial outlay for the machines either. You can ball park additional costs of the same price for the lathe for tooling to use it and at least double the cost for the mills if your adding dro's, boring heads, vises, hold down sets, rotary and dividing heads etc. Your tooling costs no matter what you buy are going to be the major expenses. Then there's any repairs, consumable tooling costs, metal etc. I was fortunate and my HS had fully equipped metal, welding, foundry, wood and automotive shops. Reading between the lines your going to have to start small and boot strap the program by proving how much it's really needed. None of this is going to be simple, fast, cheap or easy. It is however a more than worthwhile program to try and get re-started. I'd also let this thread run awhile and then point those that hold the purse strings at it so they understand some of what's required. Anyone who knows nothing about machining metal shouldn't be making critical spending decisions without first understanding as much as possible before making those cost saving decisions that may result in success or failure. Fwiw those HS shop classes that I took 50 years ago were what first exposed me to what's possible and ended up being something I've been interested in ever since. Without that HS exposure I probably would have never known what I was missing. Your also going to need to research and buy what the current educational books are today that will help you properly teach the theory before any student goes near a machine. That's another important part of your budget right there.

John Hasler
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Re: Mill and Lathe Recommendations for High School Machine Shop

Post by John Hasler » Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:40 am

Don't just ask Grizzly. Research donation programs in general. Manufacturers like to see people start on their machines. Also canvas local industry for support in cash or in kind.

dampfmann
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Re: Mill and Lathe Recommendations for High School Machine Shop

Post by dampfmann » Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:21 pm

I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to respond to my original query. You have provided a lot of important feedback and points to consider. I have not heard an official budget number, but the administrators are aware this endeavor comes with a considerable price tag.

Marty

Glenn Brooks
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Re: Mill and Lathe Recommendations for High School Machine Shop

Post by Glenn Brooks » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:44 am

One more resource to help your program get started, might be to link up with with your local community or technical colleges. Many CC’s have industrial arts divisions with machining departments. The Seattle area, for example, has actually five different college machining programs, from 2 year tech colleges, through engineering graduate programs. Coordinating your program development with your local community colleges or Universities could help establish important long term support for the HS program, possibly help with your curriculum development, and certainly create an educational and career path for HS graduates to go straight into machining programs at the CC level, then into industry with an associates degree under their belt. In Seattle, industry donors are also very generous supporters of school programs that supply a steady flow of applicants. pretty much a win win situation for everyone.

Glenn
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SteveM
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Re: Mill and Lathe Recommendations for High School Machine Shop

Post by SteveM » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:14 am

John Hasler wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:40 am
Don't just ask Grizzly. Research donation programs in general. Manufacturers like to see people start on their machines. Also canvas local industry for support in cash or in kind.
Why do you think all those high school shops 50 years ago were filled with South Bend amchines?

Steve

Mr Ron
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Re: Mill and Lathe Recommendations for High School Machine Shop

Post by Mr Ron » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:58 am

I would avoid all used machines, unless they are not more than 10 years old. Students will break something on a machine and it would be hard if not impossible to find a repair part. Stick with machines made in Asia. I would recommend Baileigh, Jet, Grizzly, and other oriental machines. A used machine that was made in the USA, would likely have wear or damage and parts may not be available. Don't forget you will need attachments, tool bits, chucks, vises, precision measuring tools and many other tools. That can cost 50% of your budget.

You should not need 3 phase power because I advised against used power tools. Lathes of the 12" and 14" size operate on single phase power and likewise small vertical Bridgeport clones of the 8x30 table size.

Will you be incorporating CNC and DRO's or just basic machining skill?

Make up a detailed list of all the machines you want including attachments, tool cutting bits, drills, chucks, vises, benches, precision measuring tools, raw materials, a drill press, grinders, and their cost. This will need to be presented to the school board and they may not know the need for much of the stuff. The total cost will overwhelm them and even you too. Books will also be a big cost and don't forget insurance.
Last edited by Mr Ron on Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mr.Ron from South Mississippi

John Hasler
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Re: Mill and Lathe Recommendations for High School Machine Shop

Post by John Hasler » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:00 pm

Also if you do decide to go with imports talk to Precision Matthews. He probably can't afford to donate anything but something from his Taiwanese line might be suitable. Taiwanese machines are reportedly substantially superior to Chinese in quality.

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