New member & question

[someonesdad]

Howdy -- I'm someonesdad and I just joined the forum. I've enjoyed being an HSM for a number of years. I mainly use my shop to fix things that break around the house/car/friends' house, although sometimes I'll get a bee in my bonnet about making some item, frequently a tool idea to help me do something a little easier.

The extent of my "formal" training as a machinist came one afternoon from my grandfather. He showed me how to machine some 1" brass bar stock to size, knurl it, turn it to 3/4 on the unknurled part, then cut a 10 tpi thread on it. Then the piece was cut off and a chunk of 1" brass hex was chucked, bored, and threaded to fit the male thread. This was all done with a rule and calipers. After he showed me how to do it, he left me alone and went upstairs to watch TV. I duplicated what he did, but of course ran upstairs many times with questions. That was the only time we did this -- how I wish today that I had asked to spend more time with him! But this was the start of my life-long interest in machining things.

I pursued other vocations, but machining was always a hobby. I had to learn by purchasing books, reading them, and trial and error in the shop. This is probably common to other hobbyists.

Here's some background for my question that's coming up... I've decided to write a book about teaching yourself to be a home shop machinist. I'd like to write the book I wish I had when I was starting out. The main topics I want to cover are:

Tools
Measurement and layout
Materials and heat treatment
Fastening methods
Drilling holes
Filing and chipping
Lathe work
Various how-to topics
Numerous projects to both illustrate methods and provide a useful item

The emphasis will be on doing things "on the cheap" and recycling things, as most of us HSMs have more time than cash for things.

So, here's the question: if you were just starting out as a home shop machinist, what topics would you be most interested in and want to learn first?

[bob whitmoyer]

Hi There Someonsdad

Your question is an interesting one for which there is probably
no one good answer. These things range from the one sheet instruction book "tighten chuck well in drill" you get with your latest big box store
drill press to a 12 volume encycopedia on the subj.
1. include saftey stuff with all chapters
2' define your target buyers.. got some HMS friends
Farmer who makes steel or cast iron bearings and stuff to keep his
stuff running..+or- .010 inches are close tolerance
Hobby Gun smith..Stays awake nights over .0003
Me ..all over the board...make some great stuff and great failures..

Keep us all posted on your progress.. These folks are great on
more specific questions.

Bob Whitmoyer.... Old guy who still reads books ?

[Jose Rivera]

My first goal would be (and it was) what machinery to buy and how much room I have that will limit the amount and size of the equipment.
According with the room available, this is the limiting factor on what machines you want and what size.

Power available also. Most households are limited to 115V or 220 single phase.
Buying equipment that requires 220V 3 phase requires more equipment such as a phase converter.

Second the tooling for it/them, third measuring and layout tools.

By the way, welcome to this board.

[mechanicalmagic]

I think the most overlooked but important aspect of machining is TOOL GRINDING. And the proper wheels and methods. This forum usually has an active thread related to the topic.

Most any fool can see what levers and handles can do. But the craftsmanship, the trade, the skills are hard to pass on. And tool grinding is one of those skills.

Dave

[spro]

Yes of course a welcome.
There is also an indication. I'll leave that for others.

[Beamer]

Being that i AM starting out (I don't even own any machinist tools yet) and very unsure of what I don't know, this book sounds right the heck up my alley.

I know very little about machining - it took me a little while to even grasp what a lathe does vs. what a mill does - round stuff, flat stuff - but then I came to find out there can be exceptions to this. A milling attachment for a lathe, for example. Or a rotary vise for a mill. Oh the complexity!

Being a self-tought woodworker, I am not entirely unfamilliar with the ingenuity that people apply to get more functionality out of any given tool (dowel maker on a table saw, for example). The trick for me lately has been equating machine specifications with practical limitations.

I have hesitated buying the famed older books that people generally recommend to newbies mostly because I haven't been able to hold one in my hands or find adequate explanation of what they contain. Do they tell me what the heck 4.35mm of travel on the thingamajig means from a practical perspective, for example. If I could hold one, I'm sure I could answer that question. I have yet to find one nearby - and frankly I haven't really looked that hard because I'm new and chicken to branch out of my comfort zone just yet.

A book like you describe sounds like exactly something I'd be into. Sadly, it could take a year or more to publish - and I don't think I wanna wait quite that long

Part of the reason I'm chicken to to much more than casually lurk on forums and read various web sites is because I think maybe I have too-thin a skin for the kinds of answers I've seen on some forums. I must say, I don't see it nearly as much on THIS forum, but there are some other places that really seem unwelcoming. Maybe I need to toughen up a bit.

Having a book like you describe would certainly give me a footing upon which to build. Most of my shyness likely stems from not even knowing the very basics. It's not that I'm afraid to ask dumb questions, it's that I'm not even sure how to ask the questions. Having a book that gets me through a hands-on type progression of the basic operations would put me lightyears ahead of where i feel i am today.

Machinery selection would be another GREAT help to me. I'm currently looking at two lathes that seem like good values, but so far most of the forums I watch tend to exclude the class of machine altogether. I'm just newb enough to not know why that is - are 7x lathes just too dinky to do anything worthwhile? To see some of the threads, you'd think everyone needs at least a 9x20 lathe ... and I haven't found a basic rundown of why that is.

I haven't even begun thinking about a mill - i'd like to know more about milling attachments ... in fact, a whole chapter (if it'd fit) devoted to some basic description of the more common accessories and such for various machines. Chucks, collet holders, milling attachments for lathes, etc.

And projects! I love that you'd offer projects. Projects that let you know what you need up front would be great. I'm thinking of some woodworking books that I have that say "here's what you'll need..." right at the top of the project. I have never actually built any of them, but the description itself does a great job of helping the concepts mesh in my brains.

Tool grinding was mentioned and i fully agree. I have a grinder... and I have a basic idea of some steels - HSS vs. carbon - from my wood plane blades, chisels and woodturning tool experience.

Speaking of different steels - some kind of introductory material on metals would be nice. Hardness, machinability, common practical uses ... etc. That'd be nice to see somewhere.

Man ... i'm gonna have you writing an encylopedia if I don't shaddup!

[Harold_V]

Part of the reason I'm chicken to to much more than casually lurk on forums and read various web sites is because I think maybe I have too-thin a skin for the kinds of answers I've seen on some forums. I must say, I don't see it nearly as much on THIS forum, but there are some other places that really seem unwelcoming. Maybe I need to toughen up a bit.

You need not toughen up a bit! If you post questions or comments politely and are treated rudely, the offending post will be deleted, and the responsible party put on notice. Profanity and flaming are not permitted on this board. Readers are expected to discuss issues openly, but with manners.

Those of us that oversee the operation of this board want each and every reader to feel welcome, and to conform with the rules of common decency. Only rarely do we have a reader that refuses to comply.

If you feel you are mistreated, please bring it to my attention. I can be contacted via PM, or by email.

Harold

[Frank Ford]

Writing this kind of book is a BIG project, and these days, it should involve LOTS of photos - not because the public is illiterate, but because printing the photos is not expensive as it once was. People do expect to see really good illustrations, and the quality of those often makes the difference.

Naturally, you'll want to assess your motives in writing the book. IF you expect to make some serious $$, that will definitely depend on getting great distribution and a swell deal from a publisher. Having investigated that scene in my own field of stringed instrument repair, I can tell you for certain it ain't an easy prospect. A deal of around seven percent of the cover price, or ten percent of wholesale is fairly common, and you'll have to sell a ton of books to make out on that. Self-publication ("vanity press") is pretty much guaranteed to result in low sales numbers.

That said, I decided not to write a book, partly because I have yet to see the clear path to success, and partly from a basic sense that I'd never feel it was complete.

Instead, I ended up writing and photographing vastly more that I ever thought I would, putting together the material on my Web site. Now, I don't get a lot of $$ from the small donations people send me, but I do get a lot of publicity. In fact, through FRETS.COM, I've become the best-known guitar fixer in the world, for whatever that might be worth.

Of late, I started including machining articles on my site, and those number over a hundred so far.

I can't tell you how many folks I've met who were "working on a book" that was either never finished or never published. The Web obviates that situation, and you can post the stuff as you generate it. You can change, add or delete material, and that allows a freedom you won't get in publishing a book.

I write and maintain my Web site for a number of reasons:

1. I'm obviously desperate for peer approval. (Insert smiley of your choice)

2. I'm paying back the community that has supported me for so long.

3. I'm generating the material I wish I'd had access to when I was learning.

4. Writing about process helps me smooth out my work and actually improves my technique.

5. Writing helps me remember techniques I've learned or developed.

6. Wishing to be rich and famous, I settled for one, and became famous. (Insert second smiley - I don't use 'em because I'm a curmudgeonly old geezer about some things.)

[someonesdad]

Thank you, guys, this is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for.

Some of you guys are right around my old stomping grounds... Jose, I worked at Mare Island pressing explosive powder into 5" naval shells the summer after I graduated from high school. mechanicalmagic, I grew up in Alamo and lived in Dublin for a while after school. Beamer -- I lived in Stockton while going to school.

Beamer, it sounds like you're exactly the kind of person I'm aiming this book at. I would enjoy being able to have an email discussion with you. I'm in the process of writing it, but I can't predict when it will get published. I'm going to self-publish it, so there will be little time between finishing it and having copies ready for sale.

In the meantime, I can make some recommendations. First, I'd recommend heading to the used book stores and look for a text book that was aimed at high school shop courses and written, say, between 1920 and 1950. This book will go over basic hand work type stuff: layout, hacksawing, filing, chipping with cold chisels, etc. These are valuable skills to have and you'll spend the rest of your life improving them. To be sure, metal removal rates are low, which is why you'll want to move to electrical machinery.

Lindsay Publications publishes older stuff that's beyond copyright protection and at reasonable prices.

Go to http://www2.lib.msu.edu/branches/dmc/index.jsp#catalog and search for "advanced machinist". You'll find an old book that will provide some useful information.

Another old book to search for at the same url is "Modern Machine Shop" by Rose. I downloaded the whole thing (took a bunch of time). The line drawings in it are fabulous. You'll be amazed at how much was known 120 years ago.

You'll likely want to buy Guy Lautard's books at some point -- they're wonderful reading and contain lots of useful knowledge.

[Mcgyver]

Two great books for the home shop machinist come to mind; The Amateurs Workshop and The Beginners Workshop. The excellent however getting old and very english - a lot of myford accessories etc (nothing wrong with myfords but today it strikes me they're the exception not the norm) so there's always room for an excellent book. These two are books that should be on every home shop shelf - you might find them interesting in how the balance breadth and depth.

I’d like to see your book make people better craftsmen and deepen their skills – I think this engages them more with the hobby and the more engaged craftsmen they are the better! There is a couple of trends I see in beginners that a good book might recognize and help with.

First off, there’s a sense the there are big short cuts “ I don’t have to learn all the traditional skills”. Cnc or inserts will let me leapfrog that stuff, who needs it anyway. The don’t understand a) how easy a lot of the traditional stuff or at least how accessible it is to have a go at, and b) how much they are cheating themselves. They’re loosing out because modern convenience augment traditional skills. Without building the traditional skills I think engagement with the craft is not as deep as it could be and they are always going to be frustrated as they’re work isn’t going to be as good as they’d like. I’m talking about being able to file a cube or hex hole, grind a tool bit or do a bit of scraping. Simple skills that belong in every shop. Of course this traditional stuff is in every traditional book not being read by these people so your challenge is to figure out how to re spin it.

The other trend is the cheapo gizmo and gadget trend. Complete beginners feel they have to have everything at once– cripes I see rank beginners buying things like gauge blocks for heavens sake. To facilitate buying everything, they buy low quality stuff. In days gone by, before the proliferation of cheap (and often junk) import tools, I guy might have a lathe and make engines with a rule and spring calipers. One day he’d have enough saved up to buy a Starrett or M&W mic. The stuff he did buy was quality; it lasted, performed and was held with a sense of pride. Because real metal working stuff is made and priced for industry (and still is) he couldn’t afford to have everything so if made do and he made tooling. This deepened skills and which deepens the involvement in the craft.

Why does this matter? I think the lack of satisfaction from using inferior stuff long term chases people from the hobby. They get frustrated, “geez no matter how hard I try this just never seems to come out right, I must not be any good at this” I think content the talked to how to build a tool collection (both purchasing and making) might bring some balance.

The comment about picture is very good. Its so inexpensive to digitally record things now.

I really like Franks idea – circumvent the publishing hassle and go direct via the web – that or get some stuff published in the magazines is an alternative as well

[Beamer]

Beamer, it sounds like you're exactly the kind of person I'm aiming this book at. I would enjoy being able to have an email discussion with you. I'm in the process of writing it, but I can't predict when it will get published. I'm going to self-publish it, so there will be little time between finishing it and having copies ready for sale.

I'd be happy to chat backchannel with you about this. I think you have the ability to get to my email through this board, if not shoot me a PM and I'll fire back a response. I'd consider it a mentorship to have someone who's been through it to clear up any confusion I might have. I've tossed out pretty much all the things I'm currently struggling with, I'm just waiting for the "right time" to take the plunge. I'm pretty sure i'll be buying a lathe ... i don't know for sure how soon. The boss will determine this (she's good at telling me what to do)

If you feel you are mistreated, please bring it to my attention. I can be contacted via PM, or by email.

Harold, That's good to know and thank you for jumping in, there. I should have probably said I've never felt any of that on this board nor can I recall observing it here at all. I think that I mistakenly let my opinion of the whole machining field get tainted by what I've seen on some other forums and that was wrong. You all have clearly broken that impresson and I'm appreciative to find a place that feels comfortable. It might just become my metal-home - i have a couple of wood-homes already, might as well get myself comfy in the metal world, too

[steamin10]

If you have half the brains of a Chia pet, anyone would realize that all that cruise this board are not equal. There are those that have spent their entire careers, in one line of machining, welding, repair, and did little in other avenues. To take the high ground and insult an unkowing question, from one that is mildly interested in the use of some gidget, is simply cruel.

Some thoughts: Owning machinery, does not make you smart, anymore than having a violin makes you a musician. It takes practice and learning how to solve all the little problems along the way.

Harold V. is a most modest man, that spent his career in high accuracy machining. It seems at times almost clean room settings. I work as a Millwright, with a BIG hammer, on stuff broken by brute force and stupidity. While big hammers are desirable in some sense, they are not, in other classes of my trade, like Hydraulics, where porting has gotten down to 10 Mils. Explaining this to an idiot that pours fluid from a dirty bucket is frustrating, as it is the first time you try to zero round stock in a 4 jaw, and realize it is NOT round.

Before I write a seriously long post, understand for your book, that there is much unseen in the learning of machine trades. It cuts across many lines of knowledge, and has many parts, that in panarama involve the very nature of metals and power application, mathematics and common sense, a feeling for the work, the art that it becomes.

Try to explain that to the guy that cant build a birdhouse.