ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

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dgoddard
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ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by dgoddard »

I expect that some of you who are accomplished machinists or tool and die makers will find some of my beginners comments amusing. However, as helpful as you were, there are a bunch of things that you did not tell me about flood coolant. So as someone who has just started using it, I though I would comment on some of my discoveries for the benefit of those of my own experience level and lower who might be considering doing the same. It is nice to know what you can expect before it happens so you can decide if you want to go that way.

First of all, doing flood coolant on my Lagun FTV-2 vertical mill (10x50 table) was pretty cheap and easy. There is a sump in the cast iron base and the pump, wiring switch and tubing inside the column was all in place. There is a 1/4 turn ball valve on the left of the column and a switch on the right. So all it took was the external flex piping, nozzles and fittings plus some coolant to get it going. The pump has a 60 watt 220v/440v 3 phase motor so I have to run my 220v rotary phase converter to run the pump, but that is no problem. For the record, I have only tried the Syn-Kool brand of synthetic coolant concentrate so far. I also bought a magnetic base, flex support, transparent. lexan shield to control splatter. Locally I bought about 4 feet of 3/4 inch automotive radiator hose to connect the table drain to the sump inlet.

My first expectation was that the milling cutter was going to sling coolant from one end of the shop to the other. Surprisingly, it was not so! It slings some but by placing the shield fairly close in front of the cutter very little gets on me and what gets on the machine mostly drains to the sump. some does get on the floor, but nothing like I had feared. A few quick swipes with the mop prevents any build up.

It would have been nice if someone had told me Murphy's first law of setup when using flood coolant. Namely, if any portion of the workpiece or setup extends beyond the edge of the table, even if it appears to go uphill, the coolant will follow it far enough to run off on the floor in a steady stream, (possibly into your shoe).

It seems that one of the more important reasons to use flood coolant has been utterly unmentioned, Swarf & Chip Control! I was pleasantly surprised to find that when using flood coolant that those nasty needles of fine swarf that are generated by cutting with the side of an end mill a. don't go flying anywhere near as far as they used to. Most of them are caught in the coolant and drop promptly on the table and are swept away via the T-slots, and afterward, those left on the table adhere slightly to it instead of making the skin of your fingers look like they tangled with a micro-porcupine. My expectation of how far the coolant would be splattered was based on how far the mill would throw chips, but with flood coolant the flinging distance is greatly reduced.

One of my great fears was that since the coolant was more water than additive, that surely I was going to have rusting problems. Not so! The additive remains on the machine surfaces after the water has evaporated out of it. But then I thought, HORRORS, with that sump full of coolant, there will be 100% humidity inside the sump and column. It is going to rust like crazy in there. 2 months later, not a hint of rust! If water can evaporate out of the coolant, surely it will condense on the metal farther up, but no! Either that red paint in there is something very special or that coolant does something pretty tricky.

OK! You guys did warn me that my table better have some grooves along the edges to keep coolant from running off the edges. Well it does, and they do work, but unfortunately the cross grooves at the ends of the tables do not entirely interdict them and coolant was dribbling steadily off the ends of the table. It seems that the lead screw brackets nicely block the t slots but not the side grooves. Well a little bit of plumbers solid epoxy dams quickly fixed that after I cleaned the oily film out of the grooves.

One of the things that was a great motivation to me to try flood coolant were some ruined carbide end mills. It seems that when the mill was breaking out of the work piece at the end of a cut, that when the remaining metal became thin, it could not dissipate heat like in the rest of the cut. So suddenly, I would discover that the feed rate was not enough and and the thin piece of metal would turn red and the heat of the metal would thermal shock the cutting edges of the cutter. I was expecting the flood coolant to prevent this, but hey! the work piece is not even warm. It is actually cold! So is the cutter. Well I guess that in addition to saving the carbide end mills, it will save me a few "owies" when I am in a hurry to remove the work piece or change the cutter.

It would have been nice if someone had told me to get a "y" fitting so that I can cool the cutter from two directions at once. I can now see how convenient that is, especially when making cuts in both directions. Actually I could use a few illustrations about how to supply coolant to various types of cuts. So if some of you who are more experienced would get your cameras out the next time you have set the nozzles up in yet another nifty way, it would provide a valuable educational experience.

Tramp oil was another thing I knew might be a problem. However I did not really suspect what the main source was going to be. In fact I hardly expected any problem at all. But there is a slight one. Most of my tramp oil seems to come from the one-shot-oiler that lubricates the ways. The flood coolant that gets onto the top of the knee seems to rinse it down into the sump. There may be a little that drips off of the quill and spindle but that has to be way less, and an occasional drop or two when I tap a hole. However I did not want to invest in a fancy expensive skimmer until I had assessed a lot of other things about flood coolant. As it turns out, it so far has been satisfactory to open the access to the sump and just lay a paper towel on top of the coolant and then pick it up and throw it away. The oil is readily picked up by the towel. Now if there is a substitute for way oil that I can use in the one shot oiler, the problem will be reduced even further.

I was warned about stinking rancid sumps and I have even encountered a few in other shops, but so far, no problem! I guess that the synthetics can live up to the claims about little or no such trouble.

Evaporation has been a little bit of a problem. My basement is now in the low humidity part of the year and the sump level went down noticeably during a week or so when I did not use the mill, and it suddenly dawned on me why that was. I ran the pump and added some water to the mix and had no problem getting it to combine nicely even though the bottle warns "O.I.L. = Oil In Last". I guess I need some cost effective way to judge when the concentration is getting off, and if any of you guys have any practical hints to offer that do not require me to buy an expensive measuring apparatus, I will be most appreciative.

One little problem that proved to be annoying is those Loc-Line or Snap-Flow flexible pipe segments and fittings that supposedly can be put together by hand. Well, yes they can, provided your hands and the segments are clean and dry and you have strong fingers and not too many of them to put together and you don't mind, knocking the piping out of line. They really do need those assembly pliers they sell, or something like that. Anyway I have ordered a pair, and I hope they work better than doing it by hand. Well, hand assembly was a pain but at least doable for an initial set up to see if I wanted to follow through with flood coolant.

If mess was what I was most concerned about and that has been only minor if at all, there is a closely related benefit I did not expect. When I was using cutting oil to help with the machining the chips were quite oily or they picked up oil when they landed on the machine ways. As part of cleanup I had tried vacuuming them off the machine with my shop-vac. But that little bit of oil on the chips plus what ever got sucked up off the machine just made a mess out of the shop-vac hose. It just softened the plastic hose material to the point of uselessness Well the coolant I am using does not seem to bother the hose near as much if at all. The chips seem to be a bit adherent to the machine horizontal surfaces if I don't clean it up until the coolant has dried, but the coolant has flushed most of the chips on the machine into the cross grooves at the end of the table and the rest are easily swept off of the machine surfaces with some cheap bristle paint brushes I keep around for machine clean up.


I think you can see from the general tone of this, that I am mostly quite pleased with flood coolant so far. The negatives have been less problem than I expected and there are ways to offset those problems and there have been unexpected surprise advantages. Maybe I am just lucky or maybe I am a Pollyanna but I don't think so. I am sure I will have more "adventures" and probably some of them will be "mis-adventures", but I hope this will encourage other beginners to seriously consider trying flood coolant. It has been far less messy or troublesome than I thought it would be and so far it has been very beneficial.

Granted, I got off easy on cost because most of the system was present and operational on my mill already and that may not be so for others. My successes with this to date have got me to wondering now if I should consider adding flood coolant to my lathe. Of course I might find that a lathe chuck is a far superior coolant flinger when compared to a milling cutter... :shock: ... ?
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GlennW
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Re: ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by GlennW »

It's good to hear your results were favorable.

The only time it can get messy is when plunging with an end mill, as the "chip nest" that gathers around the mill slings a bit of coolant.

I prefer 90° nozzles with a 1/16" orafice. Single on the lathe, two opposed on the mill.

Now you will be even more amazed if you set up your lathe for flood coolant...

No more hot parts.
Turning to size is a breeze.
Drilling is a non event.
Surface finish is far better.
Work hardening? Whats that?
Increased tool life.
The parting tool suddenly becomes your best friend...
No built up edge on tooling.
No rust.
You really don't need a rain coat (unless you aim the stream at the chuck)
A lot of time just a steady drip will do, which is what I do when threading.

More stuff, but nobody believes it... :)
Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!
Russ Hanscom
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Re: ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by Russ Hanscom »

Well, I just finished a similar adventure with a cooling system start-up, except that my mill does not have a built in sump and pump. I acquired a used Graymills system at little cost and installed it. My experience generally parallels yours.

There are many great leak opportunities between the mill table and remote tank - trust me. Scraps of sheet metal with some binder clips make great barricades around the work.

No problems with tramp oil so far.

The cooling system is plugged into the mill panel via an HOA switch so I can use it via manual or CNC control.

A Tee behind the spindle with individual valves allows coolant to go to either or both sides of the cutter.

I put a drain valve in the bottom of the tank so I can remove the coolant easily and use it in the lathe, which has a built-in cooling system. The Graymills unit is on casters so I can roll it over to the surface grinder and use coolant there too. It makes sense for me to have only one batch of coolant in service.

Agreed with the cutting results; better surface finish, better chip control, faster feeds, and no hot stuff.
CraigS
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Re: ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by CraigS »

I have been thinking about flood cooling my BP what is the part number of the Syn-Kool you have been using?

Craig
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dgoddard
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Re: ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by dgoddard »

CraigS wrote:I have been thinking about flood cooling my BP what is the part number of the Syn-Kool you have been using? Craig
Enco's Product Number ............................. 505-2057
Enco 2010 Master Catalog Page ............. 888
Enco Online Catalog Page URL
..................................... http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPA ... PG=INLMK32
Current Price for just 1 Gallon ................... $23.09
Dilution Ratio water to Syn-Kool .............. 10:1 to 30:1 depending on application

For my application I went with 10 to 1 because I could easily thin it down if needed and the ratio for milling and turning was 10:1 to 25:1. I filled the sump with 5 gallons of water, started the pump and added the Syn-Kool by pouring the concentrate into the water where it returns to the sump. At this time of the year It gets dry in the basement so I noted the level in the sump and add a bit of warm water while the pump is running to maintain this level. If you look up the MSDS on it, It will identify it as a different brand (Rust Lick). I contacted that company and they said it was the same stuff, but there may be various products under a same name.
roundnose
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Re: ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by roundnose »

This is my view,

Water based works good in grinders, saws and mills.
I would avoid it in manual lathes.
Hardinge warns not to use it in their lathes.
As it can be seen, the coolant does migrate around. It will find its way into the lathes apron over time.
The water has no place to go, and it will build up and rust the crap out of the inside of a lathe apron.
The better oil to use in a lathe, is straight screw machine cutting oil, such as Mobile, or Swiss Silver- I found really good.

Not a good idea to use oil that has been used in a grinder for anything else.
There will be fine abrasive particles that wont settle out.
If grinding oil is used in a saw for example, shorter blade life will be the result, not to mention what would happen to lathe ways.
stevec
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Re: ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by stevec »

dgoddard, excellent "review" of your flood coolant experience, thanks.
Just a curiosity, if your Lagun (nice machine by the way) has a 3 phase coolant pump doesn't it's main motor and any feed motors require 3 phase?
I have been inching toward (most of my plans barely inch along) mist coolant because of some of the perceived advantages I'd love to see a similar "review" of anyone's experiences.
P.S. on the "inching" progress of most of my plans up here in Canukistan it seems that I now "millimeter" along (couldd be age induced also).
Mcruff
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Re: ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by Mcruff »

stevec wrote:I have been inching toward (most of my plans barely inch along) mist coolant because of some of the perceived advantages I'd love to see a similar "review" of anyone's experiences.

Mist coolant makes a way bigger mess than flood coolant and much less control over the mess. We used mist coolant on our grinders, it works great other than the mess and having to breath the crap. Flood coolant all the way. We use Trim brand from MSC coolants in our machines at work.
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GlennW
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Re: ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by GlennW »

roundnose wrote:This is my view,
Water based works good in grinders, saws and mills.
I would avoid it in manual lathes.
Nothing wrong with that advise at all in general, and I would agree if I paid $60,000.00 for a new HLV-H!

The problem that arises is that not all lathes are created equal, and neither are coolants.

There have been amazing developments in the soluble coolant world, but if one recommends a very high quality coolant that will not lead to such problems, it is quickly deemed too expensive and a lesser quality less expensive coolant is opted for.

Then we go back to complaints of rust and coolant stench! :D
Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!
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dgoddard
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Re: ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by dgoddard »

stevec wrote:dgoddard, excellent "review" of your flood coolant experience, thanks.
Just a curiosity, if your Lagun (nice machine by the way) has a 3 phase coolant pump doesn't it's main motor and any feed motors require 3 phase?
Actually no, The story is that the Lagun is made in Spain, and the U.S. ones are shipped to Republic Lagun in Cally-Forn-Ya where they are fitted out as "inch machines" with lead screws etc. The coolant pump and milling head motor appear to be original Spanish but the power feed on mine is made by "Servo" with a Lagun name on it. The 3 axis DRO which I added is by ACCU-RITE and these two items are 110 single phase. Being fussy about electrical things and not wanting to risk a mix up in the future.I did not want to hang the 110 stuff on one of the legs of the 3 phase, so I installed a a 220v relay in a Junction box on the rotary phase converter which activates when I close the breaker feeding 220v to the converter. The relay switches a the power from a 110v breaker that powers all the mill related 110v stuff. Any time I open the 220 volt breaker for the Mill, everything on the mill is disconnected.
stevec wrote:I have been inching toward (most of my plans barely inch along) mist coolant because of some of the perceived advantages I'd love to see a similar "review" of anyone's experiences.
So would I, One thing that would be a concern for me, is that I have always had chemical sensitivities to all sorts of things, and with anything that produces a mist, I expect I would be breathing a lot more of it than with flood coolant.
stevec wrote:P.S. on the "inching" progress of most of my plans up here in Canukistan it seems that I now "millimeter" along (couldd be age induced also).
Yeah, but it looks like you are going 25.4 times as fast without having to really speed up at all :lol:
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Harold_V
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Re: ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by Harold_V »

Spraymist systems work, and quite well. The problem is, everything in the shop gets covered with the solution, including the quill of one's mill. I won't even consider what it must be doing to one's lungs.

With use, the quill gets so gummed up that it is difficult to move, and you can forget about having enough sensitivity for running small drills. The only way I found of getting the "feel" back on my quill was to extend it fully, spray with a chemical solvent, wipe, spray, wipe, spray, run the quill up and down, wipe, spray, wipe, spray, run the quill up and down (you get the idea) and do this until it was free. Then you'd go through the same process eliminating the chemical cleaner, so you could finally oil the quill for use. I'd finally had enough of the damned unit and got rid of it. YMMV.

Harold
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Patio
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Re: ADVERTURES IN FLOOD COOLANT

Post by Patio »

I have two questions about cutting oil use on lathes and using some thing like kerosene for cooling the tooling.

Being as cutting oil has sulfur in it to aid cutting wouldn't it also wear the parts of the lathe that it came in contact with, without taking great care to clean it up right after or avoid getting it on the bed altogether?
Being as kerosene is and oil that can also be used like a solvent, wouldn't it wash away the way oil and be detrimental to the ways?

This question has been bugging me for awhile, cause I use kerosene, for cutting and cooling, but have not been able to bring myself to using cutting oil, and think about the kerosene every time some drops onto the ways.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but this seemed like the best place to ask while everyone is on the subject of cooling.
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