New vs Used

[Mr Ron]

If you could buy a brand new machine made in either China or Taiwan or a used and fully restored American made machine for the same price, which would you choose? Assume they are nearly identical in size and equipped with the same accessories.

[sjames]

case by case basis. not all american iron was top of the line stuff. age has a significant component as as well, machines made before carbide tooling was in use are generally going to be a little slow.

late model american pacemaker vs grizzly model whatever, the pacemaker is the clear winner by a million miles.

use made south-bend model X vs grizzly model X, the choice isn't so clear.


disclaimer: Im sure both Taiwan and China produce produce some high quality machines not intended for the low cost consumer market, but im not familiar with them.

[Harold_V]

The problem with this theoretical question is that it borders on the impossible to buy a "fully restored" American lathe. Precious few individuals have the skill and knowledge to restore an old machine to new condition, and the cost of doing so is generally beyond being reasonable.

If you are to compare the typical "restored" home shop lathe (one which has been stripped clean, polished and painted, with no components replaced unless absolutely necessary), I fail to see why an American machine should be any better, and it definitely won't be capable of great performance, although there are likely a few exceptions.

I fully agree with sjames. If you compare American built machines which were intended for use in industry, none of this is likely to be true. Such machines were built to be used---very unlike the typical home shop type machine, many of which weren't all that great when they were new. They couldn't be---or the hobby machinist couldn't afford one.

I also agree that the Chinese are likely building quality machines for use in industry. The market they serve here is driven by low cost. Can't have quality and cheap prices, too, so something must be compromised (just as it was when America was building machines). Rigidity and quality tend to be what is lost. Remember--in spite of many thinking otherwise, there is no free lunch. Everything comes with a price.

Harold

[SteveHGraham]

Buy a 35-year-old Clausing which doesn't cut metric threads and has no brake or clutch, and make sure the seller sends you the wrong model with the wrong motor and only takes checks, so you can't get help from your credit card company.

That worked out real good for me.

[Hopefuldave]

Ok, my experience, YMMV...

For less than a secondhand Chinese minilathe, I got a proper 13x30 toolroom lathe, 3hp, 2 tons, inch and metric threading, power feeds on X and Z axes with micrometer stops, taper attachment, collets, 3 and 4-jaw Pratt-Burnerd chucks... Admittedly scruffy with a few repairs needed, but even with the (minimal) wear, far more capable than a far-eastern lathe, far more accurate, and much nicer to use once I'd got it sorted. I think there are some good deals out there! The larger lathes aren't as popular.with hobby machinists, a lot are intimidated by the prospect of moving something so big.and heavy but... How often will you need to move it? The Egyptians' Hebrew slaves and we managed well worth levers, blocks and rollers

I had to work on it some (luckily I had a crap lathe for the interim, now passed along), adapt it for a VFD (and hack the VFD for 240 in, 415 out) etc, but I now know how every part of it works, how it all goes together, and what its limitations are.

I also managed to save a piece of history from the Chinese smelter, which has to be a good thing?

[BadDog]

My first lathe, a Griz G4000 was brand new (almost) and total crap, for my needs at least. Terrible finish, no speeds low enough for anything but aluminum, and on top of that, I didn't know enough to begin to compensate for it's deficiencies.

My second lathe, a Rockwell 11x37 was a wonderful lathe. Rigid, accurate, and a joy to run and learn on. It did a lot of good work for me, and would still be my current lathe except that I kept exceeding it's power and work envelopes. I also need metric threads from time to time, which I was going to adapt for, but bought a new lathe instead. This was an one owner industrial production lathe (with turret) for it's entire life, and it had some issues, needed some minor repairs, but IMO beat the crap out of ANY "budget" lathe of comparable size and envelope. I actually miss it and wish I had room to keep it at the time. It was very pleasant to run.

My current (and last I hope) lathe is a true industrial lathe made in Taiwan. It's called an Osama Sr 1760G, which is a 7.5 hp 4500 lb 17x60 lathe with 2k rpm a 2.2" D1-6 spindle, over 5" on both compound and tailstock travel, and does a wide range with metric and imperial threads with nothing more than the throw of a lever. Plus it came with a nice new Newall DRO. This thing is Asian, but perfect for my "one lathe to rule them all" needs. Fast enough for the tiny stuff I need to work with some times, and slow/powerful enough for the 6" and larger steel slugs I sometimes need to turn/thread.

So in my opinion, "it depends". You can do well on both sides, but you have to be willing to educate yourself, spend money and/or labor, and if you want to save money, patience...

[Fabitfast]

I always prefer American made machine. But tell you, I have machine from Taiwan. And so far, the machine is really
working for me.

[SteveM]

For just about everything I buy, whether cars, musical instruments, tools, machines ...

I prefer a good used one to a new one. I find it's a much better value. That's completely apart from the American vs chicom question.

Steve

[Jaxian]

I agree with a lot of the sentiments above. You can get very good offshore stuff, you just have to know what you are getting into. I have a Tida TD-6B. It is listed as a 14.5 x 40. It is built more like a 16". It has D1-6 chuck, collet closer, metric and standard thread with just a pull of a knob. 5hp, 2 1/8 spindle hole, brake, jog button, weighs nearly 3k pounds and on and on. Very tight machine and built like a tank.

The key was apparently when Taiwan was trying to establish themselves in the mid 80's to mid 90's they tried to compete directly with the Japanese machines. Mori Seiki's, etc. The machines look like them and are built like them. They were rebranded in the US as Samson and I think even a Jet. I look at modern Grizzly 14x40's and they seem like toys in comparison. The thing is if you know what to look for you can get one of these vintage Taiwanese machines for a song because they are thought of as 'Asian junk' by most of the professionals and traditionalists.

Great deals to be had on really nice lathes if you do your homework. But as was also mentioned you can get real junk too if you aren't careful. Due diligence is the key.

[lens42]

If you could buy a brand new machine made in either China or Taiwan or a used and fully restored American made machine for the same price, which would you choose? Assume they are nearly identical in size and equipped with the same accessories.

In the price range that most HSMs ask this question (about $1k to $3k for a lathe or mill), the Chinese machine will be a "project" out of the box, and the used American (or high quality clone) will need some TLC. The web is full of people performing very nice mods and upgrades to the Chinese machines, but after owning both Chinese and American (actually Euro but the point is the same), I just couldn't get motivated to put a lot of energy into upgrading a basically cheesy machine with uneven surfaces, sticky action, bad paint, bondo, slop in every moving part, etc. I felt if I was going to spend time repairing a machine, I'd rather do it on a high quality one. After selling my HF lathe and Grizzly mill, I smile every time I turn the cranks on my Maximat lathe and BP clone.

[John Evans]

Personaly most "restored" American machines I've seen are Dupont restoreations shiney paint and no repair of any wear issues. My 18" lathe is Chinese but machines of that size are built for a different market that the smaller stuff. I've been very pleased with my "Acra-Turn" 12X36 gear head, made in China not Taiwan, for the last 7 years or so. I was able to see one on the floor at a local dealer before purchasing one. And was $2200+ at that time.
Most older American lathes have several design features that remove them from my consideration, to wit threaded spindles and general lack of mass. I also do not like plain bearing spindles so that pretty much removes SBs from my sights. In the smaller stuff I do like Logans 25XX series lathes if they have a L type spindle and the have a usuable 1.5 spindle bore.
So put me down in the new import camp !
Now my mills are both experanced old BPs with a few liveable issues. Came close though to making the second mill a Gorton !

[SteveM]

Dupont restorations

I like that expression.

Usually they are painted blue, for some reason.

Steve