I spun a collet . . . I think

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seal killer
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I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by seal killer »

All--

Today I was milling a 2" wide slot in a 3/4" thick 1018 workpiece using a 1 1/2", 4-flute HSS end mill with a 3/4" reduced shank running at 105 SFM at a very slow feed rate. I was taking full-width cuts at 0.050" DOC. Well into the 6th pass, at 0.300" deep, the end mill dug into the work piece. I shut it down and began the process of figuring out what went wrong.

The drawbar was not tight. It wasn't loose, but it was not "tight tight" like it should have been. I wondered if I had not tightened it up when I installed the end mill. Unlikely, but possible, I suppose. Upon examination, it appeared as if the end mill had encountered a very hard spot in the 1018. The end mill was ruined (for center cutting, anyway).

I decided to use a 3/4", TiN coated, 4-flute HSS end mill to finish the job. I inserted the R8 collet only to discover that it would not seat. It lacked a little less than 5/8" before seating. Now, I was concerned. With a mirror and a Maglite, I could see a ring up in the spindle. It looked like it might be located at about the place that the top of the collet was hitting something. After repeated attempts to slam the collet further into the spindle by hand, I switched to an old 3/4" R8 drill chuck that came with the mill. (I still use it now and then.) Slamming it into the spindle semi-seated it. Repeated extractions and insertions seated it further. Whatever was holding it back was not solid. (By now I highly suspected a spun collet had created the ring I saw in the spindle.)

Retracting the jaws of the chuck, I placed a 123 block on the table and brought the spindle down with the chuck hitting the 123 block with some force but nowhere near a killer amount. The chuck went further up in the spindle. Next, I "pecked" it in until it seated. Of course, it was difficult to remove but repeated drops of the drawbar unseated it.

Replacing the drill chuck with a collet, I tried to insert it by hand. No luck. I took a magic marker and "blued" the top inch or so of the collet and used the 123 block and the spindle down feed lever to seat it. Removing the collet (same technique as with the chuck), I saw the line created by the obstructing ring in the spindle, which you see below.
01-24-14 Ring of Obstruction-b.jpg
Reinserting and removing the collet a few times using the same method became easier and easier, but I still could not do it by hand. I stuck a 3/4", 4-flute, TiN coated end mill in the collet and used the 123 block and spindle, positioning the block in different locations around the collet so as not to push it in all on one spot. The machine ran well and a short test cut looked fine.

Deciding all was well and REALLY tightening up the drawbar, I took a 0.010" pass. The end mill was destroyed at the same spot. It must be a hard spot in the mild steel work piece is all I can figure out. (This is a good way to create side milling cutters, by the way.)

I replaced the end mill with a 3/4", 2-flute, TiN coated HSS end mill (I wanted to save my last 3/4", 4-flute, TiN coated HSS end mill) and restarted that 0.010" pass. All went well, but the sound and smoke told me that it had to work on that hard spot. After passing the spot, which seemed to extend about 1/2", all returned to normal. I took another 0.010" cut, again hitting the hard spot. The hard spot disappeared by the sixth cut and I brought the 2" wide slot down to within 0.0167" of total depth without problem. I will take it to depth tomorrow.

What do you think happened? I am almost positive that the drawbar was tight on the initial installation of the 1 1/2" end mill since it made five full length passes at 0.050" without problem. Let's assume it was tight for the sake of discussion.

Is a 1 1/2" end mill with a 3/4" reduced shank to much to turn with an R8 machine? Could the increased leverage of the big diameter have overcome the holding resistance of the 3/4" collet? Or, could it have been the hard spot in the 1018?

I have read about hard spots in mild steel. However, if such is even possible this would be my first experience with the phenomenon. If hard spots are myths and running a 1 1/2" end mill at 0.050" DOC is done every day in an R8 machine, then the only explanation that I see is that I failed to tighten the drawbar sufficiently when I originally inserted the 1 1/2" end mill.

What is the most likely explanation?

--Bill
You are what you write.
ChipMaker4130
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Re: I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by ChipMaker4130 »

Just from the gripping area on an R-8 and the overall slim design I personally keep it to a 3/4" endmill. I'm surprised that 'spinning' the collet caused a problem on that end. I've always thought the damage would most likely appear on the taper, since that's the tightest fit. Was the original collet grooved or scored in that area? Or did the collet turn with the spindle and just the endmill stopped? I must be missing something obvious because it doesn't quite make sense yet.
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BadDog
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Re: I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by BadDog »

Is that the "key" (grub screw) stripped in the spindle doing that? I removed mine before that could happen, but it sounds like that may be what happened.
Russ
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Lew Hartswick
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Re: I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by Lew Hartswick »

An inch and a half dia. at .05 depth just sound like a WAY too much cut to me. Maybe I'm just too
"conservative" . :-) Especially in steel.
...lew...
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seal killer
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Re: I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by seal killer »

ChipMaker4130 and Russ and lew--

Russ, the grub screw went away in my mill years ago. It is not an issue.

ChipMaker4130, the only thing I observed before rapidly shutting the machine down was that the end mill dug into the work piece. I surmised it was slipping. I surmised the collet spun because of the newly formed ring I saw and the circle formed around the circumference of the dyed collet when I shoved it into place.

lew, maybe it was too much. That is an easy, simple explanation. IF that is the case, then when the end mill cutting edges were finally destroyed, the power feed kept forcing the damaged end mill into the work piece thereby causing the other "symptoms"; digging into the work piece and somehow causing the collet to spin and loosening in the drawbar. Maybe.

--Bill
You are what you write.
spro
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Re: I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by spro »

It is a stretch but went well until the inclusion. That caused a hammering effect to the collet and loosened the drawbar.
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seal killer
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Re: I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by seal killer »

spro--

I was searching for an explanation of how the drawbar may have loosened. Your "hammering affect" is a great explanation.

--Bill
You are what you write.
ronm
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Re: I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by ronm »

Inclusions happen-guy I worked with told of cutting a piece of steel with a torch, & came to a spot that just wouldn't cut...he kept cutting around it, & finally revealed a ball bearing. This was close enough to the WWII scrap drives that the steel was probably recycled & the ball just didn't get melted. Sounds like it may be something like that causing your problem...
hammermill
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Re: I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by hammermill »

I would have expected the mill to spin in the collect first,a piece of swarf is suspect , also look over the drawbar head/nut.
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BadDog
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Re: I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by BadDog »

seal killer wrote:Russ, the grub screw went away in my mill years ago. It is not an issue.
--Bill
I thought I remembered that, but my memory is terrible, and that's all that came to mind. Good luck.
Russ
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seal killer
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Re: I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by seal killer »

spro and All--

When I lost the grub key a few years ago, my R8 tooling would no longer fully seat in the spindle. Everything lacked about a 1/16" of inserting completely. In yesterday's crash, I bet what loosened the drawbar was the hammering affect FULLY seated the collet that last 1/16" of an inch, THEREBY making the drawbar loose, or at least not tight enough.

How that led to the collet spinning, I do not know.

After my "precision fix", I am getting very nice cuts. So, with fingers crossed, I am hoping all is well.

--Bill
You are what you write.
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GlennW
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Re: I spun a collet . . . I think

Post by GlennW »

seal killer wrote:When I lost the grub key a few years ago, my R8 tooling would no longer fully seat in the spindle. Everything lacked about a 1/16" of inserting completely. In yesterday's crash, I bet what loosened the drawbar was the hammering affect FULLY seated the collet that last 1/16" of an inch, THEREBY making the drawbar loose, or at least not tight enough.
l
The collet seats on the taper causing it to constrict on the tool shank.

If the collet was 1/16" from seating, the end mill would have no grip on it at all.

Two things to make sure of when milling:
1. Tighten the draw bar
2. Lock the quill.
3. Lock the unused Axes

I use a clamp type quill stop placed as high as it will go, and lock the quill against it. That way it for sure can't extend.
Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!
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