Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

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spro
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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby spro » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:10 pm

Purely practical confronts history. From a practical perspective, why do anything? Why even have a lathe? We know the answers to this because we are already invested into the craft of being close to a machinist. Why does somebody restore a 1939 Studebaker President straight 8 when there are more 55-57 Chevys around and they could sell them for more $$$? Somebody did or didn't and they become rarer and rarer. I watched a movie the other day and a guy was getting into a Studebaker Packard Hawk. I knew what it was just from the shape of the windows and dashboard. Does this mean anything? Does Studebaker and Packard mean anything? Mopars of 1957-9 meant nothing until "Cristine" type movies. I had read they crushed and destroyed at least 16 of these cars for those movies. No problem.
I wandered off the point. A machine tool must be accurate for that is the pursuit but a history is value too.

Harold_V
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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby Harold_V » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:53 am

My limited experience in scraping came by witnessing a total restoration of a tiny Gorton mill, an 8-D. It was accomplished by Nick Favero, a retired Navy guy who worked in machine repair. It was butt ugly before he started the restoration project (fully rescraped, with new screws and nuts installed) and was butt ugly when he was finished. But what a machine he re-created. I was the first one to use it, making a multi-cavity lead ball mold (which I still have) for loading 20 gauge shotgun shells. That machine, which was totally clapped out when he started, was one of the most precise machines in the shop, aside from the jig borers.

I agree that it is beyond the ability of the common man to restore most machine tools. They tend to lack the needed equipment, and often lack the necessary skills.

My opinion only. Anyone who paints a machine and passes it off as having been "restored" should spend life in front of the firing squad. Paint does not make a machine tool work. They can be ugly (even butt ugly) and still be very good machines. Like that little Gorton was!

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

John Evans
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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby John Evans » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:38 am

Harold_V wrote:My opinion only. Anyone who paints a machine and passes it off as having been "restored" should spend life in front of the firing squad. Paint does not make a machine tool work. They can be ugly (even butt ugly) and still be very good machines. Like that little Gorton was!

H


My feelings exactly !!! :evil:

whateg0
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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby whateg0 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:24 pm

Harold_V wrote:...

My opinion only. Anyone who paints a machine and passes it off as having been "restored" should spend life in front of the firing squad. Paint does not make a machine tool work. They can be ugly (even butt ugly) and still be very good machines. Like that little Gorton was!

H


Fully agree. For many, though, it seems that paint does make the machine. Those are the people with more dollars than sense. I know of a guy who retired from one of the aircraft plants who went and bought a new Tormach mill, new manual lathe, and a lot of tooling for both. Spent a lot of time setting them up and making everything look nice. I think it's been about 5 years since I found out about him. He still has yet to make any parts. Is he "one of us"? I'd say not. But he's the guy who would buy a freshly painted import over an unpainted, greasy, grimy, Monarch with a bed full of chips.

I guess what I'm saying is that there IS a market for those machines. Unfortunately, that market also crosses over into that of the new guy who doesn't yet know enough about machinery to know what to look for, who ultimately gets taken for a ride on his first go-'round. I think I can count myself as part of the latter. Had I known then what I know now, I'd have never bought the Weidenhoff I did. It had little tooling, a bent spindle, horrible spindle bearings, and all the wear one expects with a 60-year old machine. Trying to figure out those problems is what led me to Chaski, PM, and a few other sites. So, I wouldn't say it was wasted effort or money. I chalk it up to a learning experience. When I bought my 10EE, I had a better idea what I was looking for. It's still a worn machine, but I know ahead of time, so there were no surprises.

earlgo
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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby earlgo » Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:55 pm

Re: chatter from the "Enough HP for a Mini-lathe" thread.

Pete: The chatter does not happen all the time, but enough to make it annoying. I do adjust the feed and speed, but with a manual feed change it takes a bit of time to get it right. Mostly I leave it around .008"/rev.
On the ATLAS the bull gear is pinned to the drive pulleys with a sliding pin. Disengaging the pin allows one to engage the back gears. A friend suggested that some of the chatter may come from the slop in the pin hole. Recalling that this machine got beat up pretty badly in its previous use, this is something that may need to be addressed. One can feel the pin hitting the sides of the pin hole. I am thinking that this needs to be bushed and the pin refitted, perhaps with a slightly tapered pin.
I have also had better luck with diamond honed HSS cutting tools.
Thanks for reminding me I am not done with the "makeover". Time for more lipstick... :D

--earlgo

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SteveM
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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby SteveM » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:57 am

Harold_V wrote:My opinion only. Anyone who paints a machine and passes it off as having been "restored" should spend life in front of the firing squad. Paint does not make a machine tool work. They can be ugly (even butt ugly) and still be very good machines. Like that little Gorton was!


Yours, mine and a bunch of others here.

Been looking for a Heavy 10, and one of the dead giveaways of a "krylon rebuild" is that the shaft on the selector lever is painted. This wasn't painted from the factory.

In this example, both lever shafts are painted as is the flat surface where the selector pin goes.
SBL.jpg


If you see a freshly painted lathe and that shaft is unpainted and maybe even clean bright steel, there is a MUCH better probability that the lathe was completely disassembled, cleaned, rebuilt, painted and reassembled.

Steve

whateg0
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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby whateg0 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:05 am

SteveM wrote:...If you see a freshly painted lathe and that shaft is unpainted and maybe even clean bright steel, there is a MUCH better probability that the lathe was completely disassembled, cleaned, rebuilt, painted and reassembled.

Steve


Or, if the lathe's gib bearings and underside of the bed, where said gib bearings would ride, and all sliding surfaces of the taper attachment are covered in, or rather slathered in, grey paint, it was probably not done right! Reminds me of a used car in that regard. And that's the state my EE was in when I got it.

It could be tough for a novice to recognize that type of thing, though. Well, not the gib bearings thing, but a painted shaft like you showed. Especially since the machine in your picture obviously wasn't "rebuilt" yesterday. Looks to have had some use since it was last painted.

Dave

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SteveM
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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby SteveM » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:10 pm

whateg0 wrote:Or, if the lathe's gib bearings and underside of the bed, where said gib bearings would ride, and all sliding surfaces of the taper attachment are covered in, or rather slathered in, grey paint, it was probably not done right!


Yes, the paint in the wrong place is sometimes obvious. The shaft thing is one of those less-obvious things.

One of the best examples was the ebay machine where the paint was all over the pallet and the floor.

Oh, and why do they always paint things in ebay blue?

I have seriously thought of making a lowball counteroffer on a lathe and when he asked why I was going to say to say that was to compensate for all the time to remove the paint.

My brother taught me a great trick on buying a car. Run your finger over all the rubber moldings around the windows (where the rubber meets the painted surface). If there is roughness, then what youare feeling is the rough edge where the masking tape was pulled off. Dead giveaway for a repaint.

Steve

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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby Downwindtracker2 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:50 am

This is an interesting consideration, rebuilding machine tools. After watching Keith Rucker working on his Leblond , I gained new appreciation of my 25 year old Taiwanese generic lathe, labeled BusyBee DF 1224g. UK Lathes has write up on them, BTW. At least I haven't found any wear on the bed. To me the lathe was kind of a throw -in , I was after the Rong Fu #45 mill/ drill, I low balled him on both and he accepted. I paid $1700, the mill's Craig's list value was $1200 to over $2500. The maximum on used machinery should be 1/3 new. Genuine Rong Fu 45s are lot more than the Chinese clones.

I've used them when working on rehabbing woodworking machines. I joked I pay a dime on the dollar, then my wife asked how much on parts. Well a quarter, I guess. An example is my wood shaper, a BusyBee #1065 , a clone of the Powermatic #65 . I paid $100 and spent $250+ at Grizzly in parts. BusyBee is Grizzly in Canada. However when I finished it was a good deal better than new. Wood shapers usefulness is governed by their fences. The pig would have been an old Delta, it's only a 1 1/2hp machine and shapers need at least 3hp.

Besides Keith Rucker, two even more eye opening vids on YouTube are Wes Johnson, his evaluation of a worn lathe and lookcreations, on restoring an Elliot 18 shaper.
A man of foolish pursuits, '91 BusyBee DF1224g lathe,'01 Advance RF-45 mill/drill,'68 Delta Toolmaker surface grinder,Miller250 mig,'83 8" Baldor grinder, plus sawdustmakers

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BigDumbDinosaur
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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby BigDumbDinosaur » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:34 pm

Harold_V wrote:My opinion only. Anyone who paints a machine and passes it off as having been "restored" should spend life in front of the firing squad. Paint does not make a machine tool work.

It is often said that paint can hide a thousand sins. That's especially true with machine tools.

One of the machines in my shop is a Wells horizontal band saw, produced in 1954. When I acquired it 27-odd years ago, it was filthy and needed attention. I replaced the blade guide bearings and the V-belt, gave it a new bi-metal blade and patiently realigned the blade guides so it would cut straight. The hydraulic damper needed new seals and the vise jaws need a little touchup in the mill to make them flat and square again. I also made a work support for the side opposite of the blade. Some degreasing took place but no paint was applied, which it could certainly have used. No sins are being hidden by paint. :D
Science makes it known. Engineering makes it work.

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liveaboard
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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby liveaboard » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:56 pm

I have to admit, until I read this thread, the idea of painting my lathe never even occurred to me.

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BadDog
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Re: Rebuilding(?) a worn out lathe.

Postby BadDog » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:54 pm

I know a lot of folks love to polish and embellish the aesthetics of their machines, and when well done on a worthy machine (or one made so) I do admire the spiffy looking machines, often accompanied by an equally spiffy general shop space. A 10ee rebuilt with modern servo drive and painted maroon comes to mind, or the guy with that (by appearance) fantastic Hendy, and many others.

But me, almost all my machines still wear their factory dressing, or what remains of it. They are all still very functional and wear their battle scars quit well, looking far from new, but not "beaten on". There are a few exceptions, like the little Pratt Whitney "sensitive" 1/4" drill press. That thing is MASSIVE, weighs about 80lbs, and in spite of the paint foolishness, has a hand scraped table surface and quil slide! The slide is pristine, and the table while having been quite used still shows quite a lot of the scraping artifacts too. Anyway, it came to me with about 4 or 5 coats of house paint, all cracked and flaking looking like it might be machine leprosy. It worked just fine (made a few missing/broken parts), and I thought it deserved better, so I stripped it down to bare iron casting, no bondo left, painted bare iron with hammerite, reaffixed the brass plates, and called it done. But that is the exception. I got better things to do with my machines than paint and polish ...
Russ
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