Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

Moderators: GlennW, Harold_V

wild_musk
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:57 am

Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by wild_musk »

I just purchased a new Bison 6 Jaw Set Tru chuck and back plate for my Logan 12" lathe. It has a threaded spindle, 2.25-8. Putting it together without any adjustment, the chuck runout was clearly visible when I turned the lathe on. I checked the runout on the face of the spindle (perpendicular to workpiece direction), and it just makes the dial indicator bounce around a little, so less than .001. I checked the inside of the spindle surface with a test micrometer, and got about .0005. Both readings were better than I expected.

Re-attaching the back plate only, I noticed it didn't spin on to the spindle very far. The register on the back of the plate hits the end of the threads and won't go any farther, pictures below.

I've read the instructions a few times, but this isn't clear to me. It appears I need to enlarge the inside of the plate's register to get it to snug up to the spindle. Should the unthreaded portion of the back plate touch the spindle at all? As you can see, it's about .03" undersize, as best I can indicate with the micrometer that way. Am I correct that the face of the back plate's register should snug up against the face of the spindle?

I've been searching for an existing thread or tutorial, but most are concerned with the mating surfaces between the back plate and chuck, which I haven't even gotten to yet.

Image

Image

Image
John Evans
Posts: 2366
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Phoenix ,AZ

Re: Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by John Evans »

Yes it needs to fit over the nose touching the sholder. Second you might as well be measuring with a yard stick with the first inch missing as trying to get that close of measurments with a caliper going from OD to ID. I don't trust any caliper doing that ID-OD work closer that .005 or so. See what the back plate measures on what was on the lathe before for compairsion on the ID.
www.chaski.com
wild_musk
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:57 am

Re: Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by wild_musk »

Thanks, I realize...I broke out some man tools and measured everything again. Thanks for the idea of measuring the old back plate.

The spindle still measures 2.285", and re-measuring the new back plate, the ID is actually 2.260". The one from my old chuck (on the right) is 2.315". So I need to remove .055" from the ID of the new back plate to match them, or maybe just stop at 2.3" ID for a closer fit.

The lathe came with a couple of different face plates that I haven't used yet. Should I make some jaws for one of them to hold the new back plate for enlarging the ID? Is there a better way? I could use clamps on the faceplate instead of jaws...getting the workpiece concentric with the spindle seems like a challenge with either method.

What about the length of the back plate's register? It just seems long and makes the chuck stick out for no good reason I can tell. The old one is just a 1/8" nub - any issue shortening it to more closely match the old one?

Image
spro
Posts: 8016
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:04 pm
Location: mid atlantic

Re: Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by spro »

You might get lucky on this. Bison is a very good quality chuck and I would expect the back plate to be parallel on both sides. Since the chuck winds on the threads ok, you can reverse the backplate and using a precise "ring", space the plate back from the lathe register. The ring can be an old bearing race or could borrow the outer race/ cup from a new one. It may measure perfect enough to shorten and open up that plate. I think you're right about the I.D. You don't want it tight but less than the other should be fine. Nice lathe, btw.
John Evans
Posts: 2366
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Phoenix ,AZ

Re: Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by John Evans »

The Set True chuck needs the long regester for the set true feature to work as that is where the adjusting screws seat . SPRO has it right on reversing the face plate to work on the ID bore. If the regester on the new back plate holds the chuck body away from the back plate face back only as needed to allow the chuck to seat on the back plate properly.
www.chaski.com
f350ca
Posts: 262
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:10 pm
Location: Calabogie Ontario

Re: Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by f350ca »

I've never used a thread on chuck so maybe Im wrong but I'd expect you want the register a fairly tight fit. The threads should only hold the chuck on the spindle the register should align it.
Your existing chuck with 0.030 clearance I'd expect has a fair bit of unrepeatable runout.
I would guess you only want maybe 0.0005 or less clearance on the register to align the chuck. The threads will pull it on and off.
Some one correct me if Im out to lunch.

Greg
spro
Posts: 8016
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:04 pm
Location: mid atlantic

Re: Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by spro »

You are not out to lunch. The way it works is the pressure PA of the central threads and then being tightened to a register. This register seeks balance as the flat works the screw threads to their position to meet a linear contact of the PA of both threads. That aligns and locks. You don't want it going wild with open register bore so that is close fitment.
It cant be tight because everything said before wouldn't happen.
wild_musk
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:57 am

Re: Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by wild_musk »

spro wrote:You might get lucky on this. Bison is a very good quality chuck and I would expect the back plate to be parallel on both sides. Since the chuck winds on the threads ok, you can reverse the backplate and using a precise "ring", space the plate back from the lathe register. The ring can be an old bearing race or could borrow the outer race/ cup from a new one. It may measure perfect enough to shorten and open up that plate. I think you're right about the I.D. You don't want it tight but less than the other should be fine. Nice lathe, btw.
Thanks - great idea. I spun it on backwards to confirm I couldn't do it that way, but did not think of a spacer ring.
John Evans wrote:The Set True chuck needs the long regester for the set true feature to work as that is where the adjusting screws seat . SPRO has it right on reversing the face plate to work on the ID bore. If the regester on the new back plate holds the chuck body away from the back plate face back only as needed to allow the chuck to seat on the back plate properly.
Thanks, however I think you are referring to what Bison calls the "mounting projection," the part that goes into the counterbored chuck, correct? I meant to ask about shortening the part of the backplate that registers on the spindle. Bison does say the mounting projection needs to be faced with about .003 clearance from the chuck, just as you suggest.
wild_musk
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:57 am

Re: Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by wild_musk »

So I can shorten the rear register of the backplate as long as it still does in fact register on the face of the spindle? And it should have some room between the ID of the faceplate and OD of the spindle to allow their respective faces to register against each other, ideally parallel to the bore? I'll get the ID cut first, then see what I've got when it's mounted - if it's good, I'll leave the length alone.

Last question, If the backplate is concentric after I get it mounted, should I still check concentricity of the chuck itself? If so, how does one do that on an adjustable chuck? There's no "zero" position for the adjustment screws, right? Sorry for all the questions, and thanks again for the responses.

v/r, coty
User avatar
Harold_V
Posts: 20247
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by Harold_V »

wild_musk wrote:So I can shorten the rear register of the backplate as long as it still does in fact register on the face of the spindle?
Correct. It's important that it makes intimate contact when the chuck is installed, as that is what guarantees perpendicularity of the chuck with the spindle.
And it should have some room between the ID of the faceplate and OD of the spindle to allow their respective faces to register against each other, ideally parallel to the bore?
Again, correct, but try to observe the rule of thumb of a thou of clearance per inch of diameter, and no more. Even better would be to present ONLY the amount of clearance that permits the chuck to be mounted to the spindle. If a half thou allows installation, that's all you should provide. Any more and you offer the opportunity for the chuck to misalign, although that may or may not be an issue. The point being that once the metal is gone, it's gone, so remove only what you must, as wear is going to happen, too.
I'll get the ID cut first, then see what I've got when it's mounted - if it's good, I'll leave the length alone.
That, in my opinion, is the correct approach, but unless you have the means to properly measure the bore as you machine, you're risking going oversized, and the amount may not be to your liking.

DO NOT MEASURE WITH A CALIPER, VERNIER, DIAL OR DIGITAL. None of them have the degree of precision required to permit successful results, although you can achieve your goal by chance, and some do. Use a telescoping gauge, and measure with a micrometer, the same micrometer you use to measure the register of the spindle. That way, even if the mic is not properly calibrated, you'll be working to the same dimension, real or not.
Last question, If the backplate is concentric after I get it mounted, should I still check concentricity of the chuck itself?
There is nothing to check, because that feature is adjustable. So long as the chuck is capable of being corrected so it runs true at any given diameter, that's all that is necessary. Because the thread is quite coarse, once it seats, it's highly unlikely that it would seat deeper yet, and that's what it would take to make the chuck run out once it was properly adjusted.
Be aware, there is most likely some error in the scroll, so the chuck will likely require adjustment for each diameter that you choose to grip. That, of course, depends on the degree of concentricity you desire to hold. The chuck may surprise you and repeat within less than a couple thou, regardless of diameter.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
wild_musk
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:57 am

Re: Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by wild_musk »

Thanks Harold, that all makes sense.

I thought I replied to you here several days ago. I got the chuck mounted, and I think it's decent. The backplate fits around the spindle with about .002" around the ID. The instructions said "in all cases" the front of the backplate would need to be machined to fit the chuck's counterbore, but it was like Bison had already machined it to be in the specs they provided.

Thank you everyone who chimed in.

v/r, coty
User avatar
neanderman
Posts: 896
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:15 pm
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

Re: Fitting Bison Chuck to Logan 12"

Post by neanderman »

Picture? :-)
Ed

LeBlond Dual Drive, 15x30
US-Burke Millrite MVI
Atlas 618
Files, snips and cold chisels

Proud denizen of the former "Machine Tool Capitol of the World"
Post Reply