First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

Moderators: GlennW, Harold_V

norcalnewbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:03 pm

First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by norcalnewbie »

Hi everyone,

It's a pleasure to officially become a member of the forum. I've been fascinated with precision machine tools since I was young, and about 6 months ago made the decision to leave my current job to actively pursue a career in the field. I've been working on building a cnc milling machine, all the while keeping an eagle eye on all local exchange sites (namely Craigslist here in northern california). My budget to purchase a proper machine has been non-existent, and I figured that whatever I was finally able to get was going to need a decent amount of work to get in proper shape...so long as the fundamentals of the machine were sound I have no problem with this.

Fast forward a couple months and I stumble across a posting placed by the widow of a long time electrician/light machinist advertising her late husbands lathe. Not knowing what I was getting, whether or not it was indeed a quality brand, or even if it worked or not I jumped on the opportunity to help her clean out the garage...figuring that at the very least I would be able to salvage some precision parts that I could re-purpose down the road.

This is where I come to you gentlemen humbly asking for some guidance. From what I have determined following links from other posts within this forum, as well as hours and HOURS of deep Google searching, I'm pretty sure I have identified the model machine I have...an Emco Maier Maximat Compact, model number being MQ-3100. From what I could determine from lathes.co.uk, this is the general family. I have tried to join the Yahoo group focused on the Emco V10 (is that correct?) in order to get a copy of the manual so I begin to teach myself to use the machine properly. What I have been able to achieve so far:

- used the better part of a gallon of WD-40, no less than 30 razor blades, and a bag of super fine steel wool to loosen then knock off the rust that had accumulated on the machine (no where near done with the overall clean up, but wanted to see the condition of the ways, saddle, cross, spindle, etc.)
- got the motor running, pulled a v-belt from my drill press and another that came with the lathe, and actually GOT IT SPINNING
- jimmy-rigged a carbide router bit into a makeshift tool holder and mounted it into the toolpost
- successfully turned down, faced, and center-drilled a piece of scrap stock to test the run out of the spindle/chuck, and the overall operational condition of the machine

Well, it seems that the machine is in much better shape than I had originally thought. Surface finish on that part is to be expected from the macguyver nature of everything so far, but I tentatively think that the only damage to the machine is superficial and solely due to sitting in a musky garage without use for what I understand is the better part of 20 years.

My problem is, I don't know what I don't know. While I've been digesting everything that I can it still feels like everywhere I turn there is oceans of information that I have yet to uncover. I found a post on this forum by a Canadian gentlemen in a similar situation with I think the same machine to be the best resource I've come across yet. This probably seems like a lot of rambling, and honestly it likely is, but I'm feeling a bit in over my head at the moment and would like to formally ask for some direction as to what I should do to bring this machine to a fully restored state (and I mean fully restored, like the condition of the gorgeous blue Maximat on the lathes.co.uk page). The only perameters that I have to work within are a budget of saltine crackers, yet ample time and buckets of enthusiasm. I think, and I'll defer to your experience and knowledge here, that priority number one for me should be to get my hands on the operators manual, that way I can start to identify if there are indeed missing or damaged pieces that I was originally not aware of.

I've added some pictures, a couple of the original ones from her post as well as some I've just taken showing the shape that I have it to thus far.

Thank you very much for reading my extremely long-winded explanation of my situation, you all have been an extremely valuable resource to me in my journey thus far and I want to thank you in advance for any info that you send my way. If anyone is local to Northern California I'm more than happy to trade some labor hours for the chance to shadow/observe someones setup.

Appreciate it!
IMG_20190820_004123_01.jpg
IMG_20190820_004131_01.jpg
20190820_003243.jpg
20190820_003216.jpg
20190820_003103.jpg
Attachments
20190820_003154.jpg
norcalnewbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:03 pm

Re: First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by norcalnewbie »

additional pics
20190820_003003.jpg

Original motor specs -- seems to run strong, has forward/reverse switch, capacitors show no signs of buldging or damage
20190820_002940.jpg
On the headstock pulley there is a pretty large chip out of the largest slot. Will this cause me problems? Should replacing this be a priority? Should I avoid using this setting?
20190820_002934.jpg
20190820_002919.jpg
20190820_002906.jpg

Right now I'm using some Mobile 0w-40 full synthetic "European" motor oil for my Way Oil. Do you think this is a good choice? I also have some 20w-50 motorcycle oil that is really high quality, would that be a better choice? As soon as I have some money saved up what is your opinion of the oil I should be using?
norcalnewbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:03 pm

Re: First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by norcalnewbie »

I'm also planning to build a stand/workstation for the machine, would love to get your thoughts about what design principles I should employ, what material I should utilize, and what my overall minimum size should be. Shop floor space is at a premium so I'm looking to be as space efficient as possible while providing a fully supportive base.
SteveM
Posts: 7763
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:18 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by SteveM »

My first thought is that I see what looks to be an abrasive pad in the bench.

Stay away from those for now. Use the least aggressive method to remove rust and other stuff first before you go to something aggressive.

Use evaporust or electrolytic rust removal (you can search this site for information on both). I had a chuck worse than that come out clean and shiny in 30 minutes using electrolytic rust removal.

Don't use motor oil for way oil. While it's better than nothing, it's for a totally different purpose. Someone local to you might have a gallon jug of Vactra 2 and can spare a few ounces for you. If you have to use something else, several people have said that chainsaw bar oil is similar.

Don't use detergent motor oil for anything unless you can find something in the manual that says to. On a car, you want the bad stuff in suspension so that it can get to the filter. Here you want the bad stuff to settle out.

The oil you use in your headstock will depend on whether you have roller or ball bearings vs plain bronze or babbit. Having the manual will really clear things up on what to use where.

Read Harold V's posts on high-speed steel lathe tools.

Watch some machining videos. For beginners, I recommend MrPete222 and ThatLazyMachinist. Both of them were shop teachers and can show you the fundamentals. ThatLazyMachinist's videos are nicely grouped into subjects. Start with his shop safety videos.

Post progress along the way and ask questions. Lots of questions.

Steve
John Evans
Posts: 2366
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Phoenix ,AZ

Re: First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by John Evans »

That missing piece in the pulley is a non issue ,don't worry about it. Pretty paint does NOT make the machine work a whit better! Bench ; steel is better that wood IF stiff and rigid .
www.chaski.com
SteveM
Posts: 7763
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:18 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by SteveM »

John Evans wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:37 am That missing piece in the pulley is a non issue ,don't worry about it.
I might take a piece of fine sandpaper and just knock off the corner of the break so it doesn't present a sharp edge, but John is right - it should have no effect on the operation of the pulley.

Steve
pete
Posts: 2518
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:04 am

Re: First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by pete »

Go here for restoration on either that exact lathe or one much like it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVFSCJVPuKA Watch all the videos about that lathe and then the rest of what he's done. Go here for detailed Profesional level infomation. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/m ... nspection/ DON'T ask any questions, most are using larger equipment than hobby sized and aren't interested in someone just starting out that doesn't know anything yet. The informations all there in past posts, you just have to do the work of finding and reading what you need.
spro
Posts: 8016
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:04 pm
Location: mid atlantic

Re: First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by spro »

Norcalnewbie. I wouldn't have walked away from that lathe either. You've already invested in it to a large extent. Looking so much better now. There are more particular things which would need attention but you have been shown links which cover that. A person doesn't just run into an Emco Maximat 10 every day. It appears to have had the vertical head at one time. Pic 6 shows end mill marks on the cross slide which can't otherwise happen.
First time I saw a V10 P, I thought it was the cat's meow. It was on factory cabinet and had many attachments for both the lathe and vertical head. Later views by others said it was a great lathe but not so good as a mill. What that means is the lathe was built heavier, to support a mill head. During the time yours had one, there may be some wear at the back.
spro
Posts: 8016
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:04 pm
Location: mid atlantic

Re: First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by spro »

Getting marks Out of slides isn't the way. Burrs, high points, yes. Yours might have the extra gibs because it has flat ways. Either ways, your progress is of interest and somewhat delight.
norcalnewbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:03 pm

Re: First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by norcalnewbie »

Thank you everyone for the responses and advice, truly appreciated. I'm digesting as much info as I can get a hold of, the snag I feel like I'm at right now is getting a hold of the manual. While those video's are absolutely priceless, and have definitely helped in my progress thus far, I'm hesitant to start pulling apart major parts to give it a deep clean without at least some reference as to how to make sure it's correctly going back together...I've requested to be added to the Yahoo group and I'm sure it'll just be a matter of time before I do get access, it's not like I'm at a loss for cleaning to do for the moment.

I'll try to summarize some of what's been said above and give an update of where I'm at...progress has been a bit slower than I would like due to starting a new job this week, but coming along none the less.

Abrasives and Rust Removal - I'm definitely avoiding anything meant to take off metal, the most intense pad that I've used thus far is the Maroon Scotch Brite, and even then mainly using on painted surfaces and areas that I will ideally be repainting. I picked up a gallon of Metal Rescue Rust Removal at Home Depot, from what I gather it's roughly the same as Evapo-Rust, that has been doing wonders for me so far.

Solvents and Degreasers - I picked up a bottle of Zep Industrial Purple Degreaser as well, I'd be curious to hear your guys thoughts about areas I can and can't use it on. The previous owner seems to have had a mishap with the top of the screw-cutting gearbox, it looks like it was broken in about 3 places and on the underside it looks to be tack welded in a couple spots to hold it together. There is roughly 2" equilateral triangle of material missing under the placquard that shows what each lever position does. I used the Purple Degreaser to strip the paint and bring it to bare metal, my plan is to use some body filler that I picked up in that Home Depot trip to fashion a patch.

Belts - Purchased a 1/2" x 25" V belt from Amazon, which arrived yesterday. I currently have the headstocks gear removed for cleaning, but roughly lining them up it seems like ti will be an okay fit. That gives me two belts of the same dimension, is that what I want? Amazon did have a good selection so it won't be difficult to return/replace if I missed the mark. Thank you very much for the reassurance about that bite taken out of the pulley John, I was worried that it was going to be a snag for me.

Oils, Lubrication, and Grease - Steve, I appreciate all the points you've given me. Some great things to keep in mind when I do purchase those supplies. Would you say the Vactra is my best bet for the way oil? In some of the youtube video's I've seen with this lathe and similar ones it looked like a particular gear oil was used for the screw cutting gearbox, do you have any idea what that might be? Would I be able to use that on my back gearing as well? Outside oil, there are grease fittings for the bearings (which are ball bearings by the way, at least for the pulley arm which is looking choice now and spinning like a DREAM), they all seem to be in amazing shape actually. The motor spins with little to no resistance, and the spindle feels dialed in.

Resources online - Pete, thank you for that link, invaluable info on that youtube channel. And for Practical Machinist, man, what a gem. I think I mentioned in the earlier post, but I've really been trying to get into this field for about 6 months or so now, and really putting in the time and effort to learn from all the amazing pieces of content people have published.

Thanks for being a sounding board for me fellas, I really really do appreciate it. Spro, can't tell you how pumped I was when I was lugging this guy into the back of the car. The more and more I learn about this lathe the more I realize how lucky I am to have gotten it. And as I dig deeper and deeper into the cleaning and restoration I'm realizing that it's in phenomenal shape, it's just literally sat dormant for well over a decade and that's going to take some toll. It does indeed have the mounting points for the milling column attachment, once I get this in proper order, and comfortable operating it, that might be the next project that I strive for.

I've got a slew of pictures to upload for you guys. As always, any and all feedback that you're able to provide is worth it's weight in gold to me.

Couple questions regarding tooling that I should start shopping around for:
- Any experience with the Harbor Fright brazed tools? I saw they have a set of carbide inserts as well. My thought here is quantity over quality at least for the very beginning...I figure I'm gonna be a butcher for the first little while before I get the hang of things, much rather be busting $3.00 tools than $30.
- Outside a set of turning tools, what else should I look to invest in? I guess better phrased would be, if you were to write the order of operations that a guy should learn to consider himself proficient on the lathe, what would that be and what tooling is required for each?

I'm aiming to get these pictures up before I head into work today, worst case scenario I'll have them up tomorrow. Pretty solid progress I think, I'm proud of it.

Can't thank you guys enough, anything I missed addressing in this post I'll definitely get to when I get the pics up.

Hope everyone is having a great weekend,
Bruce
(norcalnewbie)
TomB
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:49 pm
Location: Southern VT

Re: First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by TomB »

Before you get too involved in alternates to Evaporust test he effectiveness of what you are buying. For many years my shop was in a cellar that flooded every 5 years of so. As such I have tried many more things for rust treatment than I can remember. I now limit my choice to 'Top Saver' and 'Evaporust'.
User avatar
Harold_V
Posts: 20231
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Location: Onalaska, WA USA

Re: First machine tool, need a bit of help identifying and advice on restoration steps

Post by Harold_V »

norcalnewbie wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:49 pm - Any experience with the Harbor Fright brazed tools?
None. But if the equipment they sell reflects the quality of the tooling, I suspect none of it will be real good. Not saying it won't work, but in a serious setup, it's unlikely going to be able to compete with good product.
I saw they have a set of carbide inserts as well. My thought here is quantity over quality at least for the very beginning...I figure I'm gonna be a butcher for the first little while before I get the hang of things, much rather be busting $3.00 tools than $30.
I get the idea that you're going to try to avoid the learning curve of grinding proper cutting tools. That may be one of the worst decisions you'll make, in particular with the machine you have. Carbide demands rigidity, especially inferior carbide, which often lacks tensile strength, thus is subject to easy chipping (edge failure).

There are few benefits to running carbide on small machines. They typically don't have the rigidity, the spindle speed, nor the power to take cuts that would be beneficial to the operator. The exception to that is if you find you must machine abrasive materials (like fiber glass board) or cast iron that is chilled, or with sand inclusions. In those instances you may benefit by using carbide (assuming the proper grade is selected), but I'm having more than a little trouble trying to think of any more reasons to turn to carbide.

I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a moment. Insert carbide tooling would be exempt, but not brazed tooling.
Any idea how you'd maintain such tools? Don't assume, because they're carbide, that they will hold up indefinitely, especially on a lightly built machine such as yours. You're likely to chip the tips (easy to do when facing with the tool not dead on center) or if you stall the machine in a cut, which is also easy to do when you run fractional horsepower motors on small lathes. Carbide can not be ground with conventional grinding wheels that are provided with the typical bench or pedestal grinder. It is best ground with diamond, wet, but can be ground (I'm using that term loosely) with green silicon carbide wheels. Problem with them is, the silicon carbide isn't a great deal harder than the tungsten carbide being ground, so the resulting finish leaves a great deal to be desired. Breathing the resulting dust is also not a great idea (the chance of silicosis), and such wheels slough off at an alarming rate (by design).

Please note that I did NOT say it doesn't work.

Do yourself a favor. Spend some time trying to learn WHY a tool cuts. It is important that you understand rake and clearance, and how each affects a tool's performance. You should also be able to fashion a cutting tool that meets your needs for a given operation (such as a boring tool, a threading tool, a parting tool, a turning tool, both left and right handed). Knowing what a chip breaker does and how to create one is invaluable. All of this is easily applied to high speed cutting tools. Don't pretend you don't need them. That's a huge mistake.

You aren't going to pick up this stuff in a day or two. Probably not in a year or two. Just don't ignore it, as if it doesn't matter. If you do, my promise to you is that you will struggle with all you attempt. You can't make intelligent decisions if you don't understand what you're doing.

One more thing.

Don't make the mistake many make, using a caliper, be it dial, vernier or digital, for critical measurements (that's what micrometers are for). Such instruments are not capable, not even in skilled hands, of making readings when you are working closely (tight tolerance work, like fitting a bearing). You won't be exempt---no one is.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
Post Reply