American v. Chinese Lathe; More Confused Than Ever

All discussion about lathes including but not limited to: South Bend, Hardinge, Logan, Monarch, Clausing and other HSM lathes, including imports

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SteveHGraham
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Post by SteveHGraham »

I contacted John Fahnestock (the guy who restored the pictured Bridgeport) a while back, but at that time, I wasn't aware that the cheap old Bridgeports I kept seeing on Ebay and so on were generally messed up. I thought it was going to be easy to find a nice $1500 machine and have it shipped for a thousand or less. So I didn't commit. His machines are looking a lot better right now.
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BadDog
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Post by BadDog »

I bought some parts from him a while back. Very nice guy. I wish I had bought my mill from him. By the time all was said and done, I could have gotten a much better mill from him (with shipping) for about the same price (including shipping). And now I'm still using a mill with both way wear and moron craters in the table. The only thing I (think I) came out on top with is a very recent full head (shipped to them) rebuild from a "authorized Bpt service facility" (ticket said something like that anyway), and the vari-speed head does seem to run very well, though for all I know they could have done nothing but cleaned it and installed a new bushing to charge over $2k.
Russ
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schwabw
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Post by schwabw »

Hello all,

Is a rebuilt like this "as good as new" or is it simply buying time?

Bill
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mechanicalmagic
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Post by mechanicalmagic »

schwabw wrote:Hello all,

Is a rebuilt like this "as good as new" or is it simply buying time?

Bill
Bill,
I have a rebuilder nearby that produces something like the "Concours" version of rebuilt Bridgeports. He regrinds the table, and anything that is not perfect. He strips to cast, and does a complete bondo job, with the best paint. He balances the motors, and rotating parts. Installs new bearings, and screws (if needed). I would say the machines are much better than a new Chinese knockoff, and are about twice the price. But still about a third the price of a new one (my guess on cost).
http://www.bpt.com/index.asp?pageID=63&prodID=56

Dave J.
Every day I ask myself, "What's the most fun thing to do today."
9x48 BP clone, 12x36 lathe, TIG, MIG, Gas, 3 in 1 sheetmetal.
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thedieter
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Post by thedieter »

I feel like rambling a little to get my mind off what is going on in DC.

When I was in Hong Kong during the Korean War, I found that it is about as big as a postage stamp so later I was amazed when everything was marked "made in Hong Kong". It turns out that most of the stuff was actually made in mainland China and sent through Hong Kong so we were actually buying stuff made in China long before Nixon went there.

Now I suspect that a lot that was marked "made in Taiwan" was also being made in mainland China and this probably applied to machine tools as well.

Has anyone been through the distribution system they use and know first hand how products are produced since we threw Taiwan under the bus? My point is that the difference between made in Taiwan or China may be an illusion.

Best regards, Jack
nheng
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Post by nheng »

There is no illusion. In general, Taiwan products have better fit, finish and metallurgy. Compare products made in Japan 40 or more years ago with those made there now.

I think "price point" was already mentioned. China has high end products that compete with the best but you don't often see them because they are no cheaper than European or US made quality products.

In lower end mainland China products, you CAN find pretty rough castings that can actually fall apart when you do more than look at them, low quality bearings and more ... and the thing that really makes them stand out is hardware of very low grade with poor plating or finish, sometimes look like they were hammered in and then painted over. No joke here, many stories you will read on the internet about this are true.

If you are in an area where you can touch, feel and test machines, go for good quality, used US or European machines. If not, try and stick with the best you can afford, preferrably Taiwan built from some of the names mentioned earlier.

Den
Richard_W
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Post by Richard_W »

My experience has been that you can get a good import machine brand new for the cost of a good rebuild. One rebuilder wanted about $4K several years ago to rebuild a bridgeport. He also gave a warranty like the factory. If you already had the machine that would be an option. If you don't then you could get a new import for about the same money. Which is what I would do. I have run Enco's, Webb and Jet's and a mill called King Rich. All fine machines and wouldn't hesitate to buy any of them. Enco has this 9 X 42" step head for $3999.95. You can pay a little more and get the DRO and power feed installed in a different package.


http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAK ... TPG=INLMK3

Richard W.
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SteveHGraham
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Post by SteveHGraham »

The Chicoms are definitely going to catch up. I have some very nice Chinese tools already, including a Wecheer flex shaft grinder, a Fu Sheng "Curtis" compressor, and a couple of great Ridgid miter saws. Forgot, I also have a Ridgid portable table saw. I don't use it any more because I got a Powermatic 66, but I like it too much to get rid of it. I have Sunex impact sockets. I can't swear they're good quality, because I haven't used them enough to know, but they sure look good. Sunex has employees in both Red China and Taiwan.

I prefer buying American tools, but sometimes they just plain don't exist, and other times they're no better than Chinese, or the difference in quality is small compared to the huge difference in price. I was pretty excited when I was told that I could spend maybe two grand on a 50-year-old lathe and get performance and durability exceeding what new Chinese machines offered. Now it looks like that was pure BS, and Chinese is probably the only choice.

I know some guys get very lucky and find old iron with very little use on it, but I can't sit around waiting to win the tool lottery. "A machinist's widow sold me a mint-condition South Bend for $75" is not a story that everyone gets to tell.

Makes me wish I knew how to scrape old machines back into shape.
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Dave_C
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Jaws

Post by Dave_C »

My G4003G 3 jaw chuck came with reversible jaws that allow for soft jaws to be used. The chuck is actually a very nice one!

Dave C.
I learn something new every day! Problem is I forget two.
toastydeath
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Post by toastydeath »

There've been some interesting posts on PM and articles in the industry magazines lately from manufacturing folks in China, both mainland and Taiwan. The same message comes out. They can build much, much more accurate and better designed machines than we think they can. They build these for their own use. China discourages machine tool imports, and so they have a booming machine tool industry there. However, that's not what we're asking them to import. We want five dollar milling machines and ten dollar lathes, and so they've figured out how to deliver that. The import lathes many complain about were milled and ground on a machine built and scraped in china, and as accurate as most of the machines we have over here. That kind of changed my outlook on things.

If we asked some builder in China, hey, give us the best 18x80" manual lathe for $25,000 that you can (same price range as a modern high end Clausing, etc), I bet we'd be really damn impressed with the result. I'd also bet that if you went to china right now, today, you could find that exact machine already at work in their shops, and probably bring one home if you wanted.

So I'm starting to believe that it's the overall size of the machine that makes the most difference in how much fit and finish a manufacturer is going to put into it. It's difficult, even in taiwan, to properly clean, grind, and fit a machine of any substantial size for 3000 bucks. But there's not machining difference between a 14x40 and a 16x40, or a 14x80 or a 18x80. A lot more metal, yes, but the same amount of surface has to be machined. So my hypothesis is that extra money is going into grinding and fitting the machine to a better standard, the standard industrial users of those machines expect and will pay for.

I've spent a few hours recently trying to compare the import 16x40s against the 14x40s on various websites. Most of the 16x40 machines weigh twice or three times as much and the spindle centerline height is less than the bed width (often by several inches). The 14x40s are the opposite. Not trashing the lathes, mind you, I'm just saying there's a very clear class difference there. If you were dead-set on getting an imported lathe you'd feel comfortable calling a great machine, I think the 16" swing machines are the answer.

We have a Birmingham lathe (16x40 gap bed) at work. It is, for all intents and purposes, a really good lathe. Everything is smooth, and the machine has a metric ton of grunt to it. The footprint is just a tiny bit bigger than the 14x40s. It compares favorably with the Leblond lathes at school, with the exception that the Birmingham is much better at hogging (3 hp vs 7.5 hp) and has higher spindle speed. The leblond machines are a touch more accurate with a little less taper, and the dials are more finely graduated. But the Birmingham has more space, and I find is a little more comfortable to work around. At the end of the day, I'd probably take the Birmingham over the Leblond for the ergonomic factor. Although, for the money, one could probably find a bigger Leblond that would outclass it.

From talking with folks who have had other, similar machines in their shops, it seems the modern 16x40's and larger all have a very similar fit and finish to them.

At school, we've got several 14x40 machines, Clausings and... one of the import brands. They're essentially the same machine; not really built for hogging, but the job gets done. I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth if someone gave me one, but they've had problems. Deflection is always going to be an issue.

Unfortunately, the 16x40's range from $6k-$10k. Even though they come well tooled from most places (couple chucks, dog plate, faceplate, couple steadies, follower rest, toolpost, etc etc etc), that's a big chunk of change. Personally, I'd stomach it because I could not buy an import 14x40 after my experiences with the lathes at school.
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GlennW
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Post by GlennW »

When I was lathe shopping I had a dealer insist I come and "test drive" a Birmingham 14X40 insisting that I'd love it, so I did. It had terrible feel, was noisy, and appeared to be a 12" lathe that had the headstock raised to increase the swing. It was probably worth the money, so I can't critisize it for that, but I wasn't shopping price, and it really wasn't what I was looking for. I just wanted to find a lathe of that capacity that was smooth, quiet, powerful, nice feel, and well built, that I would enjoy standing in front of. He didn't have a 16X40 there or it may have been an option.
Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!
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steamin10
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Post by steamin10 »

Rebuild:

Beware, mostly soap and water, and a little paint. Seen it way too often.

Sometimes my glass is half empty.
Big Dave, former Millwright, Electrician, Environmental conditioning, and back yard Fixxit guy. Now retired, persuing boats, trains, and broken relics.
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart. My computer beat me at chess, but not kickboxing
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