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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:39 pm
Posts: 423
Location: Tigard, Oregon
Ok,
this is spread over a bit of time. I had been looking for a small tool room style of lathe for down at my shop about 4 years ago. I was at a customers shop and was getting some work lined up to quote on. the customer had back in the corner of his shop this small Clausing 1300 lathe, 13 inch swing 36 inches between centers, all covered in dust and grim, not running from a broken belt. 3 speed gear box, with varidrive. remember running these allot back in school 25 years ago and kind of liked them from my memory! had 3 and 4 jaw chucks, face plate. Aloris tool post and tool holders. taper attachment. looked like it was just very dirty, well used and not abused. ways visually looked to be great shape with no wear or ridges (Big Mistake!), looked like the perfect lathe for the occasion. ended up trading $1300 of Wire Edm work for it, took another $300 to get it moved down to the shop. tried to clean it up, but too much paying work was taking precedence, then caught the Business Partner playing in the books, he was gone in a hurry, never really got to spend anytime to get this lathe on line.
fast forward to current, I wanted to get it fixed up and taken home for the "hobby Shop". started cleaning it up pretty well. got all the grim and junk of, it looked pretty good, ready for a coat of paint!
sat down to start really checking it over. leveled it out real good over about 3 week span. it settled down and finally quite moving. but was never really able to get it dialed in perfectly level,,,, ok, lights coming on!
placed an .0001 Indicator on the carriage measuring to the flat for the tailstock, slide towards the headstock, buried the travel, OH OH,,, this is not good over .015 drop!!! this is looking bad.
took the carriage down to the tailstock end, miked from the underside of the wayrails to the top of the carriage, down to the headstock,,, .018 drop,,,, on the backside over the flat ways .005 drop! this "aint good!" start really looking at the V's, they have some good polishing on them, worn down nicely, other people have looked at at and said no way does it have wear till I show them the measurements, this one surprised alot of people! looked at everything else closely ,,, using indicators, just heavy wear and not really beat.
since the belt was broke I jury rigged a way to spin up the spindle through all 3 speeds, quite and smooth, no play radial or axially on the bearings. run out on the outside of the spindle taper and inside was well with in .00005! and not marked or scuffed up. talked with the original owner, he had used it for polishing aluminum shafts!!! lapped the ways down. but the headstock is in perfect shape
figured it was maybe a good candidate for rebuilding as I already had it, was into it actually pretty cheap. and overall it was in not bad shape, just worn heavy! and the equivalent machine today from Clausing is $20K on the shop floor.
Called Clausing, very nice people to talk with, they emailed me a manual and parts list!!!! talked with them and got the answer from them that the flame hardening on the ways was 3/16 deep! that was the important part that I needed to know to see if I could regrind the ways!!!
went through the list of parts I wanted though, they had very little and most where obsolete, but they did stock the cross slide screw for the taper attachment model!
so knocked the whole machine apart, everything!, down to the bare lathe bed. had to cut the lead screw of real tight to the Quickchange gear box. some one had redrilled the shear pin hole and botched it good. figure easy to bob the end and make a new coupling, or just replace the leadscrew as it is probably worn when I start measuring it.
I have never reground a lathe bed , and was a bit hesitant about it, done tons of grinding but usually on parts that you can hold with one hand! checked with local shops to find anyone who does it. not many now days!
I have a Large 36 by 120 Mattison surface grinder sitting in my shop. used it a lot to just grind flat work, no edges or profiles. it is a beast to run! chuck is 4 feet of the ground. not easy to position the table along the length. jokey it with the table travel. the spidle is supported from the column in a huge overhead housing. to finely maneuver the wheel in and out from the column. you need to reach over your head and pull a lever over to lock out the power feed and kick it into manual. the handwheel for positioning the in and out is on top of the spindle cube! so trying to grind and crossfeed is pretty awkward, I am 6'2" tall and with the wheel about 12 inches off the chuck I need to reach up over my head about a foot to turn the handwheel!! so grinding the ways complete I knew was going to be fun,,,,

will proceed later, and explain as I go the process I used, the results, and how I am dealing with some of the issues that need to be dealt with when regrinding the ways.

Grant


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:39 pm
Posts: 423
Location: Tigard, Oregon
The Surface Grinder,
The Grinder is a 36 by 120 Mattison Surface Grinder. 20 inch dia by 6 inch wide grinding wheel 36 grit . 30 hp on the spindle!
built in 1967. machine weighs 88,000 lbs! it has bronze bearings on the spindle. I though that that was a little odd. all the other mattisons that I know of have been converted over to roller bearings. further research showed that most where converted over to rollers to be able to ruff heavier and remove material faster. the trade off being the bronze bearing machines leave a better finish, that's better for my case.
I do not have the ideal set up for this machine, its only sitting on a concrete pad 6 inches thick over fill from about 10 years ago. not the best foundation. it will be moved in a few months to a better place to be able to permanently set it up.
setting the machine up was a real bear. it had been in storage for about 5 years and was pretty dirty.
brought it in basically for one job. it took me 3 weeks to set it up and get it going. 24 leveling pads! one of which is in the center under the machine that you crawl into the machine to adjust!
leveling was about a full week. started with the table and a precision level, got it close. then the fun began.
place the table all the way to one end, then place the level on the base's front flat ways. working from center out adjust it till the slide is perfectly level using a .0002 per foot level, then the other side, working back and forth. then the back v ways. level on a ground shaft work it till it is level, then back to the table and make sure it reads level all the way across and length ways while table is at both ends of stroke and midpoint. then use level and angle plate and adjust the feet on the column till its level, square, and true to the table. make several laps readjusting everything till everything is level , true, and no longer moving.
during leveling its interesting, put an indicator from the floor to a pad, tighten down to raise the section, it takes a bit to move 88,000 lbs, and when you stop, it might just keep going a little further on you.
finally got everything dialed in as close as I could possibly get it in my case. started grinding and a few little adjustments till I got it dialed in as close as I could. my largest surface plate is only 2 by 3 foot. but the parts that I could check seamed to always be pretty good. never had a way to truly check the larger parts , but the customers where always happy with the work they got. had to repair a master die set that was 24 by 40 inches. the customer verified that it was flat and parallel within .0004 so they where happy.
one of the problems to keep in mind with a large grinder. it has electro magnetic chucks that are full power or variable, nice option. but the longer one leaves them on and the warmer the center of them gets! means material growth and movement. important to keep in mind. usually ruff one day and come back the next to put the final finish on and hold the tightest tolerances I can.
It is different when at times you actually have to climb up on the chuck of a grinder to set up or adjust parts!!!!

Grant


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:39 pm
Posts: 423
Location: Tigard, Oregon
Sarting the Grinding,
I made sure I had a Time slot that I would not be interrupted with needing the Grinder for another job.
got everything cleaned and lubed up.
then I gave the wheel a fresh dress, quickly gave the chuck a fresh grind taking the minimum that I could with the magnetic chuck turned on full bore. took about 30 minutes. the shut everything down and let the machine set for an hour or 2. came back, redressed the wheel and just resparked the chuck with the magnet turned on full bore again. this would give me the best and truest surface to start with. verified the working surface of the chuck with an indicator attached to the spindle housing, measuring the surface of the chuck. everywhere was within a tenth or 2.
shut everything down again! keep the heat away as much as possible.
I took the lathe bed, cleaned as well as we could, turned it over cleaned and stoned of the 2 mounting pads
NUMBER ONE RULE WHEN DOING PRECISION WORK,,,,, YOU CAN NOT BE CLEAN ENOUGH!!!!

Placed the bed on the center of the table of the grinder, took a height indicator and checked the 4 corners of the flat sections of the working surface,,,, start of wonders,,, front and back differed .003 to .004! plus the bed had a twist of about .002 causing a slight rock. measured the flats above the 2 v's. they differed by over .010.
the bases where not flat, causing the rocking. and front to back? I would assume from my style of working that the 2 flats should be true to each other and the base,,,
took .003 shim stock and placed it under the front outer sections of the base, one went in further as the one end had a more pronounce gap. remeasured the 4 outer corners of the 2 flat sections. they now came into a .0007 height window! no rock either. to double check place the height gage and indicator over each corner and cycled the magnetic chuck on and off looking for any height change , all this using a .00005 indicator!
ok turned the variable chuck on and started grinding the flats over the V's till they cleaned up nicely to each other and parallel to the chuck, ran the table in slow speed, the full length of the machines stroke. over traveling each end by about 30 inches. this to remove any chance of an "oil wedge" lifting and lowering the table at stroke reversal. had to take about .015 to clean up. shut the machine down. let is sit for a couple hours with the chuck off to renormalize all the temps! came back , gave the wheel a fresh dress, reground the surface i just did, taking just the minimal while I backed of the magnetic chuck as far as I could to make sure all the twisting and bending stress was out of the casting.
then feed down a few tenths and let it spark out. checked with the indicator with the chuck off and using the spindle travels, perfect, within a tenth. in all honesty this is not the best way to check, but it is all that I had at the time.

pulled the bed of the grinder, stoned and cleaned everything! and cleaned some more. flipped the bed over on to the surface I just ground. check to make sure it was down and solid on the chuck, check for rock, twist, use indicator both off the table and the spindle housing, right where I wanted it. ground the surfaces of the 2 pads, then did the same walk away, let everything settle and cool down. come back redress the wheel and respark that surface. again backing the variable chuck of to ensure no twist or bends are induced. checked for flatness and parrallism, perfect.
took it of the chuck, recleaned and stoned everything off again, and again.
fliped it back over with the base back on the chuck. recheck for twist , parallelism and flatness. no twist or rocking left. check with indicators and cycle the chuck onn and off, no movement!
no, indicate the bed in true to the machines travel's very interesting finds here!!!!
placed the indicator on the spindle housing, indicating onto the front vertical flat in front of the front V, got the ends to with in a couple of tenths,, the center bowed in .015!!!!!!! ok,
check the flat in front of the back v's. its -0- on each end like the front!!!! center bows the same direction about .010, checked the back vertical behind the carriage flat. ends are again -0- and it bows the same direction as the other about .007. ok,,
now checked the length of the V's keeping the indicator at an angle to try and match the surface of the v's they all read -0- on the ends and about .008 drop in the centers, down on both sides so this bed is not curved. if it was the back side of the v's would read positive travels , not negative like it does!
all of this is probably causes by the manufacturing process, the bed is machined out, then the ways are flame hardened causing warpage from the heating and cooling, then the ways are finished ground, the verticals are not touched, shown by the heat marks and rough mill cuts on these surfaces!
ok ran the indicator back across the top of the V flats, they show about .0003 difference now, from the remaining twist that was worked out from flipping.
ok that is addressed. placed the indicator back on the spindle, ran the indicator down the length of both working flats. ends where within about a .0007 window, along the length the back flat (back of the carriage) sagged .010, the front flat .012! and fairly even from both sides. looked like the bed sagged .010 over the last 30+ years!
ok first I retouched the flats above the V's to make them perfect as I plan on using these as my references for the rest of the grinding. using full length , slow travels on the grinder. did the same stop, let cool redress and respark. then verify that the surfaces are true after each step. from this point on , everytime i turn the chuck on it is now full power to keep anything from moving.
next I lightly side dressed and relieved the front and back of the wheel. dropped down in front of the front flat. placed the in and out to manual! brought the wheel in close. started the machine back up and slowly crept up till the wheel was touching on the ends, then lightly feed in every couple of strokes, listening and watching the grinding till it cleaned up that surface. did the same shut down , cool, redress, and retouch. then verified with the indicator hanging of the spindle housing, perfect, .00005 indicator did not move!!!
repeated the same process on the back vertical flat ,and checked and verified the results.
when side wheeling I was only stepping over about 3 or 4 tenths every other pass. making sure it was a clean cutting pass. made sure no heat buildup or wheel loading or rubbing.
now the top v flats and the front and back verticals where done.
ok, time to tackle the flats that the carriage and tailstock ride on, these had the .010 and .012 sag in them.
the insides of the V's are 6.5 apart, that lets the 6 inch wide wheel drop in between and have about .4 of an inch to travel side to side to finish the grind. dressed the wheel , located over the front flat up tight to the front V. took a marker and marked up the surface. started grinding . as soon as the ends touched, I zeroed the dial, slowly feed down .012. taking small increments, watching the results to keep from heating up anything. watched and seen that the grind worked into the center evenly from each end (leads me to believe the .010 sag) stopped short to let the ways and wheel cool under the coolant, then slowly took it down to the finish .012, once at the bottom, slowly worked the wheel back towards the rear way to make sure the grind was fairly flat. raised up, moved over and repeated on the rear flat coming down to the same #.
did the same shut down cool, redress and retouched the 2 flats to the same settings front and back. verified with a Uni-mike the height from the first flats I ground and the indicator from the spindle housing. over the whole 2 flat surface's both front and back showed with in a .0002 window. figured split out over 66 inches that is pretty good!
next onto the actual V's,,,
Grant


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Posts: 13631
Location: Onalaska, WA USA
Outstanding report, Grant. Keep it coming.

Harold

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:39 pm
Posts: 423
Location: Tigard, Oregon
Ok, now onto the V's,
need to set up and dress the angles first.
I will admit I did not take many pic's during the process, was busy doing it! so these pics are just mock ups of the set up.

Years ago I purchased this snazzy angle dresser from MSC, I think it was $35 about 20 years ago, money well spent! you can use a sine bar, or wedges, or even a simple protractor to set the angle. 1 bolt tightens it up and its set solid, then with the little handle it slides back and forth, a small key way keeps it in line in the housing.

Ok, after all the flats and verticals where done. I dug out my dressor, a set up cube I have, and a few 1-2-3 block. on the headstock end is a pad for the quick change box mounts to. set the cube against it. lined up the dressor all square and true. loosened the clamp and held the slide shaft against the V in the unworn area under the headstock, clamped the base of the dressor to the cube , then tigthened the angle clamp. this should set the angle I need, never measured, it, dont know what it is right now. will figure that later, keep it simple!
backed the dressor away from the bed a bit. placed an Indicator on the slide of the dressor and indicayed it into the angle of the V, taped it a bit till it indicated pefect! now the angle on the wheel will match the way! easy way,,, no fuss and matches perfect. and the best part, turn the dressor 180 and dress the same exact angle on the other side of the wheel with no fuss! the perfect KISS principle.

next I brought the wheel down over the low flats that I just finished. backed of about .005 for clearance, this will make sure i grind the full length of the angle but not touch what is finished already.
then bring the wheel around to the front. space the dressor out a bit so it will slide. keep it square and true to the ways and machine travels.bring the wheel over infront of the dressor, with it lined up exactly under the bottom as well as you can. if you are off center this starts changing the dressed angle.
start everything up, full mag on the chuck. slowly feed the spindle back till the diamond touches. now slide the slide on the dressor back and forth carefully while at the same time stepping the wheel back. keep the dressor cleaned and oiled and it will slide smothly. once you have dressed enough of the wheel to get the whole surface, take a few light dressing passes as smooth and evenly as you can. a few back and forth gets any loose grit of the wheel. drop the slide down and check to make sure everything clears to start grinding.
I brought the wheel back till it was very close to the front V. dressing the back of the wheel alows me to grind the front of the 2 V's. want to grind everything in the same set up so everything is as parrallel to each ohter as close ass posible. if you flip or change the set up, you will never get it back perfectly in line, period,
started the table travel in slow speed , figuring I will get the best finish just like I did the flats.
while the table is slowly traversing i stepped the spindle back till it just touches the v. I had marked up the V with a magic marker and could tell my dress exactly matched the existing angle on the unworn ends. slowly stepped it back about 2 or 3 tenths on each stroke, sorta side wheeling the surface but could tell I was going to have an issue. stepped it back about .010 to clean the surface up, started to let it spark out but could tell the finish was crappy and un acceptable!!! backed of quickly. here is where the 45 year old grinder bit me. the thrust bearings on the spindle are way loose. with the wheel having no real load it will float a bit along the length of the spindle giving a hipity hop hipity hop finisg that you could see the crowns where about 1/2 an inch apart!!!! crap. I did not want to get into repairing the grinder right now!!! thought about it a bit. radially the bearings are fine, when side wheeling the verticals , they came out perfect!! indiacted with in a tenth, but side wheeling this angle of aroud 45 degrees is coming out bad. figured the wheel at the vertical was getting enough side load to keep it up against the bearing surface, the angle being mid way does not have enough force at very light cuts to keep it against the thrust bearing. scrathed my head, thought about it a bit. restarted everything up again, but this time put the table in fast speed, about 3 times faster than low. brought it up to the v, started grinding again. stepped over about .0003 each pass, enough to keep a load on the wheel but not to much to cause heat issues, let it take about 3 passes with now step overs but not a spark out. finish came out very nicely!! can barley see the slightest hint of any waver. set up the .00005 indicator and checked the fresh ground v at a couple of hieghts along the length,,, perfect, no waver on the indicator!!!! now we are cooking with gas!
did the typical cool down, redress the wheel. retouch and respark the surface. rechecked and still perfect, dropped the wheel over into the center and repeated the whole process on the front of the rear V. checked when done and verified it was true to!!
not the best way to check but will tell you if you are grinding true to the ways of the grinder. if the grinder is grinding a huge arc, you will be grinding the same onto your part. more on this later.

ok, flipped the dressor around 180 and repeated the dressing steps on the front of the wheel. dressing a 22 inch by 6 inch wheel with a little hand slid dressor is a little un nerving. just take time, be carefull, dont get the fleshy parts any where they could get hurt! carefull and slow is the important part!
now repeat this whole process on the back of the front v and the back of the rear v. the whole ruff in, then cool , redress, respark.
everything looks good!! perfect surface finishes, no burns, no burnished looking grind surfaces!
came back and did my finall indicator checks,,, all this over 66 inches of length.
front v , with in a tenth, rear of the front V a couple of tenths same as the rear v's, front tailstock flat reads .0003 low in center, the back carraige flat now reads .0005 tenths,, ok we got some movement somewhere, probably from grinding the V's a little heat moved the rest. tried cheating while taking the smallest amounts and finishing each surface as I went, I knew this was going to happen. but also wanted to see how much it would to for later info. If I had more time and more wheels I would of roughed each surface first , then finished all later. but I have some time constraints on the machine being tied up. and the fact that these wheels are about $500 each! so I would have to dress a tone of sand of to get back to being able to sidewheel the verticals again. but in the worst case. If I am off by .0005 over 66 inches. that is only about 90 millionths of an inch per foot, not worth losing sleep over!
ok, cleaned everything real good, pulled the bed of the grinder and placed it on my work bench. cleaned it very well. took a fine scothbrite pad and sofly rubbed the ground surfaces down clean removing any swarf, fine burs and the sharpest of edges.
placed the tailstock base on the ways. ran an .00005 indicator from the base to the front vertical. slid it back and forth along the length, perfect, no waver! ok. checked it on the front face of the V, within a tenth!!, the back a couple, the rear flat showed a few tenths, ok,,
placed the carraige in front of the tailstock base placed the indicator onto the center of the carrage over the fron V to minumize the effects of the heavy wear on the v's of the carraige. just looking for quick ruff #'s right now. they track with in a tenth or two of each other!!!!! same as the back of the carraige as well as the front vertical of the carraige. this shows that the carraige and the tailstock are travelling true to each other with in a tenth or 2!! cant ask for better! grabbed the presicion level, the bed has a few thousandts twist in it end to end sitting on the wood workbench,,,,,, this bed is a bit of a noodle, before i can go much further I need to refinshes the base and get everythin reassembled and perfectly levelled out before i start final fitting everything back together.
but I wanted some solid #'s to define how well this grinder grinds and how "perfect" my lathe bed is... called my buddy who has a big Starrett surface plate. 4 by 8 foot! load it all up and went over. again cleaned everything as clean and sterile as we could, he was wondering as it is actually his grinder and he has never had any luck grinding his parts on it! so we get it all set up. flat and true on his surface plate. all 4 corners measure within a tenth using .0001 indicator,,,, the front flat drops ,,,,, .0003 in the center, the back flat,,, .0005 in the center. just like it showed on the grinder, kinda proves the grinder is well set up!!!! and that the lathe bed is ground pretty true!
by the time you play the travel and distance #'s the tailstock and carraige travels are with in a couple of tenths true to everything and each other!!!
Luckily one of the big machine builders was visiting Brian during this time and he was very impressed with the results of the lathe bed. he gave me a quick refresher class on scrapping to boot!
this was a real boost!! and made me feel even better about this whole project!!
more later!
Grant


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:29 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:23 am
Posts: 5460
Location: Florida
Any updates Grant?

Thanks!

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Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:56 pm
Posts: 1236
Location: Issaquah, Wa.
Grant,

I'm glad this thread is back up. I, and I'm sure many of us here, enjoy watching how many processes are done.

Jack.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:45 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:39 pm
Posts: 423
Location: Tigard, Oregon
Thanks Glenn and Jack,
I have done more but stalled out a bit. a little problem with a Forklift battery that has turned into a $4k problem! them batteries are expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have done more, let me get my pics in order and I will post on it Sunday. I have a swap meet up north by Seattle friday and saterday. when I get back I will get evryone caught up on it!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:56 pm
Posts: 1236
Location: Issaquah, Wa.
Hi Grant,

What swap meet am I missing? :shock:

Jack.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:47 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:39 pm
Posts: 423
Location: Tigard, Oregon
Jack, Since your in Washington,
my brother asked me to help him at a Model swap meet at the Monroe Fairgrounds. rc, models, all the hobby things!
Grant


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:56 pm
Posts: 1236
Location: Issaquah, Wa.
Thanks Grant,

Unfortunately I'm not into R/C. Was hoping it was machinery or hot rods. :)

Jack.


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