Lathe Selecting

[Jbt68]

Hi,
I will ask a rather basic newbie question, but try to be somewhat focused!

I am brand new to live steam railroading and concurrently, to the machinist craft. Keeping in mind that I intend to build in the 1.5" scale, I would like some recommendations regarding general makes and models of relevant lathes. I would prefer something American-made, and will certainly consider classic used machines (seems almost a given for preference number one). This question does not fall under the category of "how to evaluate a used lathe." That subject seems to be adequately covered both here and elsewhere. Not to mention that I will be consulting a hopefully growing group of mentors! What I would like to come up with is a short list of potential candidates to keep an eye out for. What is the appropriate size to handle most if not everything I might encounter in 1.5" scale railroading? Will a machine with a 9" swing cut it, (no pun intended) for instance?

Thanks for your help!

Bryan

[spro]

There are many candidates. The answer isn't as simple as the question for while narrowing your search, another best suited, slides past. Perhaps the question should be which to avoid, regardless of condition and accessories.

[John Evans]

10X24 would be the minimun ,well 9X24 OK. Personaly I would buy a new import 12X36 rather the futz around with well worn old American . I want to make parts not baby sit a tired old machine. A lot depends on your location as some parts of this country have a reasonable slection of older US made stuff. I have made lots of stuff on a 12" Atlas but my Chinese 12X36 that weighs 3-4 times more works a lot better. My other thing is don't buy anything that does not have a QC gear box . The 25XX series Logans are nice ,reasonable spindle bore and have some mass to them.

[Jbt68]

Yes, a quick change gearbox is definitely a must. An "avoid" list is certainly valid as well! I appreciate the feedback on size. I know there are some who would probably recommend going with a larger swing, but 10" is about what I was thinking, at least to get started. Also a good point about making things vs. babysitting. Lots of food for thought...

Bryan

[rudd]

Keep in mind that listed swings are over the bedways, not over the saddle. Which makes it real interesting to try to touch both sides of a driver in one set-up, if you can't run the saddle under it. Can also lead to plenty of tool overhang. Most lathes list swing over saddle as well as swing over bedways in the specs.
John Evans is correct, in general, mass means rigidity. I have a 1941 SB 13, ex Navy. The thing weighs around 1600 pounds, easily moved with an engine hoist.
I put a new crossfeed screw and nut on it. Took maybe a day. New belt, well, 2 hours or so. It does not complain when I have to take a carbide cutter to the tread of some castings that got chilled and turned into white iron. It's not new, it's got some wear. I don't worry so much about cutting cast on it, though I do clean it after. Parts? Pretty easily available, and will be for a long long time. Parts for Asian lathes? Not so much.

before I got my hacksaw, I had to make the driver journal boxes. I had to cut off 1.25" thick pieces off a square piece of cast iron bar about 1.75" square. For various reasons, my little mill wasn't up to the job. I parted them off on the lathe. I've parted round steel up to 3" or so with no probs.

One other item no one has mentioned, in the used market, bigger is often cheaper. And besides, it's just way cool building a steam locomotive on a machine that was in WWII.

[Jbt68]

Thanks for the tip about the saddle clearance! I will most certainly keep that in mind. I also have to chuckle at your last comment concerning building a locomotive with something that was around during WWII. I have much the same sentiment actually. I like the idea of working in old technology using the old tools and ways. There is a limit of course. I don't want projects to slow to a crawl simply because I don't want to use a more modern convenience!

Bryan

[spro]

Having read your last sentiment,,why cannot you join the huge community of folks who use a S.B. 9A or B (since QC is required) ? These are on the market because the owners have died or simply want a larger machine.They've been on the market so long that there is everykind of attachment and web support. There is the Emco 10-13 and of course Myford. Just because something is new and has a larger bore doesn't make it quality. So without a certain recommendation that a certain Asian model, IS a good one and that particular one is decent, is the same as evaluating a machine half century older. There is nothing new about QC or power XY feeds.
Go to an Atlas site and see what people have done with them or find a site dedicated to HF 9 etc and check their issues.

[Harold_V]

I don't want projects to slow to a crawl simply because I don't want to use a more modern convenience!

That's precisely what happens if you lock yourself in to ancient machinery. With the advent of carbide, spindle speeds were increased considerably, as carbide rarely benefits by slow spindle speeds, so any advantage can be lost by its use on older machines. They, typically, lack the power to run carbide to advantage, anyway, although there are instances where carbide can be selected in lieu of HSS to circumvent problems, such as machining abrasive or hard materials.

If you select older American iron, you may or may not be satisfied with the performance from the machine. They often have too many miles to function well, and often lack the required power. Many have a threaded spindle, which, if possible, should be avoided. Having the ability to operate a spindle in reverse is a very desirable feature, one that was rarely offered on older home type machines.

Choose wisely, as a clapped out machine will yield no end to dissatisfaction. In spite of protestations from some, you will find you must work to close tolerances on many occasions (fitting a bearing comes to mind), which can be an overwhelming task on a worn out machine. To assume a clapped out American built lathe is, somehow, better than a newly built Asian machine is nonsense.

Harold

[Charlie W.]

I am a home hobby machinist but have used lathes and mills in various jobs, over the years and my lathe journey may give you some insight into what is right for you. I have used LeBlonde, Hardinge, Sharps (Hardinge copy) at work. I have owned Logan, Atlas, Sheldon, Prentise Brothers, Jet and now Goodway. I got each one because it was avaliable and the price was what I could afford, at the time I got it. Each lathe had something going for it that the previous one lacked. Some were free and some were cheap to reasonable, pricewise. The 1981 Jet was the one I had before the one I now have and my first Asian lathe. It was a 12 x 36 back-gear lathe and one of the free ones. The fit, finish and style of it was not as nice as the older vintage machines. Having QC gears, large spindle hole, 12 x 36" capacity, 2 hp motor, and hardened ways, are all plusses.

The lathe I have worked my way up to is the 1983 Taiwanese, Goodway. It has D1-6 cam-loc spindle, gear-head drive, 5 hp motor, 5C collets, foot spindle brake, 14 x 40 gap bed capacity, 50-1850 speed range, flood coolant, direct reading dials, hardened ways, steady and follower rests, #4 MT tailstock taper and a cast iron base/stand. It weighs 3300lbs.

All of the lathes made parts. While I owned the Jet, I was on-the-watch, for about 5 years, for a lathe with all the features of the Goodway, at a reasonable price. I have been using it for 4-5 years now and wish I could have got it a lot sooner. It is a great lathe and cost $2000.

Charlie W.

[Jbt68]

All excellent points and perspectives. The comments from everyone obviously justify the effort of asking the questions, as there are no end of issues to consider. I have to balance budget, functionality, ease-of-use, ability to maintain, and most importantly suitability to the task at hand, which is to machine parts for live steam locomotives. I appreciate the varied perspectives that people give in this forum. I would love nothing more than to fall into a freshly renovated classic SB lathe that will work for me. However, Harold is spot on with the view that a worn out American-built lathe is not necessarily superior to a newer Asian machine.

And the issues concerning threaded spindles and the use of carbide tools I had not even considered. Now that I think about it, I recall some discussions in the past about HSS vs carbide that could make a slower-turning lathe feasible. I guess my question would be, in an era of carbide tooling and faster spindle speeds, is the same array of tools still available in high-speed steel to do the kinds of work I will need to do? If not, then that will be a significant factor in the decision.

As I move forward I will simply have to see how the machines I run across fit within the criteria outlined above. I know for a fact that I am NOT going to find the "perfect" machine that meets everything to the letter for me, particularly as I will likely be tapping into the used market for this first machine. The issue will be finding one that gets me as close as possible...

Bryan

[sjames]

well, every hss tool blank can be ground into any type cutter you happen to need for the job at hand. and its relatively cheap.

but...grinding good tools does take some experience, its messy, and it takes time. carbide insert tooling is defiantly more convenient, but you do pay for that convenience.

even many of the modern Asian lathes don't have sufficient spindle speeds to drive coated carbide tooling at recommended speeds on small diameter work.

this is a decision every hobby lathe user has to make when they consider buying a lathe, i struggled with it for quite some time.

[BadDog]

As long as you don't give up very low gear reduction speeds (often called "back gear"), you can never have too much speed.

And you can never have too large a spindle hole, allowing pass through rather than fixed steady work.

As said, try to avoid threaded, though many use threaded lathes every day to good effect.

While you want to make loco parts, you might also consider metric thread ability. After all, once you have a lathe, other things will come up that you can make on that lathe, and they may need metric threads.

Stay away from the "too limp for the size" lathes. The 9x import lathes generally fall into this category, and also includes the Atlas/Craftsman and smallest/lightest Clausing lathes.

And finally, from my personal experience, don't start too small just because you think you know you won't need more. I'm on my 3rd lathe in fairly short order, each previous ejected when I realized it was not up to what I need/want. And each time I lost all that clean/repair/restore work (not paint, I don't paint) along with quite a lot of time and money spent acquiring NOS parts and machine specific tooling. So my final advise is to try to go for more than you think you will need. As a "newbie" considering pressures of space/money/moving, you will almost certainly under sell yourself on required minimum size.