Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

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Mark 2
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Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

Post by Mark 2 »

I have a couple nice 4" chucks that came to me with an Ellis dividing head. These chucks are mounted via a 1 3/4" x 8 TPI thread. I want to be able to mount these chucks on my Graziano Sag 12 with a D1-4 spindle. In a perfect world I'd just buy an adaptor but doubt that such a thing is made and if so would likely cost more than I'd be willing to pay. As such I think a nice little project would be to make a one piece adaptor myself. I'll rob the three cam studs from a small spare face plate.

My question to the group is what sort of steel alloy would be proper for this purpose. I'll need material that can be machined to a nice finish.

Any suggestions would be most helpful and thanks, Dave
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Harold_V
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Re: Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

Post by Harold_V »

Ductile iron has better properties than gray iron, as it machines well and has adequate properties to remain reliable. While I'm not suggesting it would be a proper choice, it would be an acceptable choice. After all, the drive plate and face plate for the Graziano are made of cast iron and appear to be more than adequate. You might also explore the use of Stressproof. It's very nice to machine. I'd avoid mild steel, but only because it machines poorly. YMMV,

As you alluded, the angle and diameter of the locating boss is critical, assuming you hope to achieve repeatable results. Luckily, if you happen to go undersized, simply facing the item back a little will restore the diameter. Once the back side is made and operation, you can then do all the machining to adapt the chuck by mounting the plate on the spindle.

I highly recommend you make a mark on the spindle (it's hard, and won't mark easily), and each accessory, so all can be mounted in the same position each time they are installed. While the differences are small, I found my machine does have modest error when I mount my Hardnge-Sjogren collet chuck. By aligning with the mark, I get the best possible position.

I used a vibrating pencil to make the mark on my spindle. It's faint, but adequate.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
Mark 2
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Re: Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

Post by Mark 2 »

Harold,

I went "shopping" online for some stressproof (1144) to find that a 1' length of 4" dia. of the same to be $213. I need a piece of 4 1/2" material. I called a friend that had a chunk of 4 1/2" x 5" long mystery metal (what were the odds?) that he was stumbling over for years. He gave it to me and I brought it home and cut off the 3" that I needed and faced off the remnant to see how it finished. Very nice indeed. I think I got lucky! Thanks for your tip on the technique of facing off the flat if I undersized the taper.

As I'm sitting here I'm thinking I ought to make a D1-4 spindle "mockup" to fit to my piece as I bring it to size. That would take a lot of the "I sure hope this fits" out of the process before I take it out of the chuck.......Cutting an accurate taper of 7 degrees 7 minutes 30 seconds may be a bit of a challenge. (Got this figured out later: indicate lathe spindle taper to zero runout on compound. Use same setting to cut internal taper in adaptor).

And while I'm at it maybe someone here has such a spindle that I could borrow or buy........It's worth a try.

Thanks very much, Dave
spro
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Re: Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

Post by spro »

There are some D-4 back plates on ebay now. Between 50-80 $$.
Mark 2
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Re: Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

Post by Mark 2 »

Thanks for the tip but those won't work as I've got it figured. I'll make the back plate and threaded nose in one piece. At least I think I'll make it that way...........!
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Davo J
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Re: Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

Post by Davo J »

I have cleaned up a few direct mount chucks and face plates, what I did was to mount the crook chuck in the spindle mounted chuck, then it's easy to turn it around and try.
Mark it as Harold said so it mounts back in the same spot when you remount it to take off a bit more.

Dave
Mark 2
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Re: Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

Post by Mark 2 »

Dave and Harold,

I think I'm missing something here. What is a "crook chuck"? Must be a regional term as I've not heard it before.

What I'm thinking needs done is to first turn the OD and face of the raw material. Then rotate the piece in the lathe's 8" 3 jaw chuck and turn the internal taper and mounting flange. The hope is to get that done in the first attempt. Good luck with that, right? If it fits properly (taper showing no slop and flanges tight together) then it's off to the mill to D&T for the cam studs. Mount the piece on the spindle as I would with any other spindle mounted accessory and then turn and thread the snout for the little chuck.

If it doesn't fit correctly to the spindle then I need to remount the 8" jaw chuck and machine taper/flange to make up for either a too tight fit (taper tight but flanges not mating) or too loose (flanges tight but slop in the taper).

Harold's suggestion to mark the 8" 3 jaw chuck (and all the spindle mounted accessories) to the spindle is just (as I see it) so that the chuck goes back on the spindle in the same position (one of three possible) to make for repeatability......tell me if I'm wrong.

Thanks, Dave
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Harold_V
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Re: Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

Post by Harold_V »

Mark 2 wrote:I think I'm missing something here. What is a "crook chuck"? Must be a regional term as I've not heard it before.
Most likely not a local term, as I've never heard it in all my years in the shop.
What I'm thinking needs done is to first turn the OD and face of the raw material. Then rotate the piece in the lathe's 8" 3 jaw chuck and turn the internal taper and mounting flange. The hope is to get that done in the first attempt. Good luck with that, right? If it fits properly (taper showing no slop and flanges tight together) then it's off to the mill to D&T for the cam studs. Mount the piece on the spindle as I would with any other spindle mounted accessory and then turn and thread the snout for the little chuck.
Pretty good procedure, but you left out one important factor.

You're going to be working with a material that has the ability to move because it will be machined, releasing stresses that may or my not be uniform. It has always been considered good shop practice to rough all features before doing any finishing cuts. That way the stresses that may be present will be, for the most part, relieved. Any minor movement of the part will be corrected with the finish cuts. If you're nervous about having enough material in case you make a mistake, leave more for finishing, but do rough before you start finishing any of the details.
Harold's suggestion to mark the 8" 3 jaw chuck (and all the spindle mounted accessories) to the spindle is just (as I see it) so that the chuck goes back on the spindle in the same position (one of three possible) to make for repeatability......tell me if I'm wrong.
No, not wrong. In spite of a high degree of precision in this spindle design, it's not uncommon for accessories to run closer to dead true in one position as compared to the other two (or five, if you have a six lug spindle). As a result, when I purchased my new Hardinge-Sjogren, I installed it in all three positions to inspect for run-out. I marked it so the one that displayed the smallest amount was used each time the chuck was mounted. Mind you, we're talking just tenths, but why add eccentricity when you have an option?

Harold
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Davo J
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Re: Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

Post by Davo J »

Sorry, what I meant by a crook chuck was a bad chuck with run out, not made true etc.
Over here if your feeling sick you would be feeling crook, maybe it's just Aussie slang.

Dave
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Harold_V
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Re: Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

Post by Harold_V »

Davo J wrote:Sorry, what I meant by a crook chuck was a bad chuck with run out, not made true etc.
Over here if your feeling sick you would be feeling crook, maybe it's just Aussie slang.

Dave
:lol:

Thought so!

Thanks for the explanation.

Harold
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
Mark 2
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Done

Post by Mark 2 »

It took long enough but I've finished the adaptor. This was a very good project, lots of different operations, very "fussy" to get a proper fit on the spindle and it proved to be an ideal "shake down cruise" for my Sag 12 lathe to which I added a DRO and a VFD recently. The lathe does have problems that needs fixing but I was still able to achieve good results in spite of the problems. Thanks to Harold for some great suggestions. I came up hard on the issue of the part stress relieving after I "finished" one side (and not the other side) of the part and as a result had to finish it again. In the future I will follow that accepted shop practice of roughing out the whole thing before I finish anything! I'd probably been told of that common practice sometime around 1968 and then promptly forgotten it......Oh well.

Below are a few pics of the adaptor. I did follow Harolds suggestion of marking the spindle and the adaptor just before removing the finished adaptor. Removing and remounting the adaptor in the same position gives dead on results. I like it!

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arthur.marks
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Re: Wanting to make a D1-4 to threaded adaptor

Post by arthur.marks »

Looks great! I'll probably need to do this sometime in the not to near future. So what did you end up making it out of? The mystery metal? Off-topic -- if that four jaw is marked "Hardinge" or "Buck," I have the same one. It is my favorite (read: most used) among the different size / make independent chucks I have :) Nice to see another one out there still doing its duty.
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