The Home Machinist!

I just found the brochure on the Sharmann that has a picture of the facing head that "was" standard with this machine. I'm missing this and hoping someone may stumble across one. Don't know if I will ever utilize it to full range/capacity of 30" dia.

This is the only actual documentation I have on this machine but in other descriptions, they state that the it is driven by the 3" spindle. I believe the head is actually mounted via tee nuts to the quill face and the pair of slots on the OD of the spindle engage/drive the head.
The advance of the cutter is automatic and by the revolution of the head/spindle, according to the description I found for a machine that was for sale.

I also have a picture of a tool holder mounted to the quill and on another Sharmann of the same model. I am looking for something similar for my tooling.

Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill

To reply to my own post: (I think that is called "think out-loud")
I have been studying the picture of the tool holder mounted on that other Scharmann mill and now observe that there is no way to advance the spindle or tool with this setup. The tool holder is actually mounted, not to a quill but a spindle hub, that is fixed but keyed to and drives the spindle. There is a faced with tee slots that this tool holder is mounted to, while the spindle provides the centering/support.

Not-way that the spindle can be advanced with this tool holder setup. What we now have is a "horizontal mill". Only way to bore is move the table/work piece into the tool.

I guess I'm still looking for a tool holder system that will mount directly to the spindle. Which leave me with the standard 5 MT spindle bore. I just looked at the spindle again and note that it has the wedge slots just behind the tang location, like a drill spindle. There is a similar pair of rectangular slots nearer the front of the spindle. I'm wondering if these have something to do with securing tooling in the spindle. I'd be interested in opinions or ideas on my main question of a tool holder system??

Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill

We had a facing head that mounted on the boring bar. We used a 5" bar most of the time and you could face the back side or the center of a weldment with it. I think it was called a "Mormon Dixon Head"? It's been a while since I used it, and it wasn't a foctory head since we used it on a Niles HBM. (Not a facing head built by Niles, but by Mormon Dixion.)

Richard W.

Most of the newer HBM's have went to a #50 taper and the old style Morse taper stuff is getting hard to find new. I don't really have a direction to point you in for a holder.



The wedge slots closer to the spindle were for driving a wedge in and leaving it there to hold either the weldon style end mill holder or to hold in the boring bar. We had a #7 MT on the Niles if I remember correctly. When changing the tool we had to drive out the wedge to hold the tool in and then use a drift to knock out the holder from the spindle like a drill press.

When ever we got a new holder for the HBM we had to scrib lines and mill the slot to hold/lock the taper in the spindle. If we didn't put the holding wedge in the helix of the end mill would suck the end mill holder right out of the MT spindle. So we had to have it to get anything done. That is why the 50 taper has pretty much taken over with a power draw bar. Really speeds up a tool change and no more beating on the spindle to change the tool.

Richard W.

Thanks Richard, Just the kinda info I need. I have been thinking along similar lines. I have had bad experiences with end mills pulling MTs out of the spindle taper in my radial drill and knew this would be a problem. My friend Roy had a MT spindle in his HBM and had a set screw to hold his boring head and bars in the spindle but had put a notch in each tool.



I have searching on ebay for tool holder ideas. I have seen a few 5 MTs that had a wedge slot that might have been to retain the tool in the spindle. I have a nice collection of Weldon tool holder for my K&T horz mill. The quick change chuck is NMTB 50 to Weldon. I haven't seen any 5 MT to Weldon and think that 5 MT is too large a jump to the Weldon taper. However, I have a modest collection of NMTB 40 for my K&T dividing head spindle and did find a 5MT to 40 taper adapter on ebay yesterday. The tool holders were retained by a bolt going passing thru a notch in the taper. Didn't notice if there was a wedge retention slot in the MT taper. Can't find that listing again, but now have an idea of what might be available out there. I look thru some tool catalogs as well.

As an aside, I just remembered that the seller of the HBM gave me a large face mill and I will dig that out and see how it is mounted. I think it is about 10" or so and pretty heavy, maybe 80#. It might do for now to face the angle plates I need to make.

Thanks

Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill

Update on previous post.



I found the ebay listing and made an offer on this item. Here is a picture.


I see it already has the wedge retaining slot and had some reservation if it will line up with he slot in my spindle. I expect to hears something from the seller since I have purchase a few other tool holders from him in the past.

Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill

As I mention in another Post, I have decided to so with the Flashchange tool holder system. Would have gone with the Weldon but that seems to start at 50 taper and that is a big leap for my 3" spindle with MT5 to 50. I'm finding plenty of FC tool holders on ebay and another tool dealer back in the mid-west.



Here is my question for Richard or others. Can you purchase these retention wedges or do you generally make them. I found a PDF file with the slot measurements for MT5 but the didn't give any info in the wedge style. It shows a 5 deg. angle on the draw up surface of the internal slot and I assume the other wedge surface would be straight. I guess it wouldn't be too difficult to make a couple and then just trim the excess length off so it won't snag someones shirt sleeve. Just leaving it standing "proud" on the other side to tap on to remove it, I suppose.

Hopefully with the right FC tool holders I won't have to change back down to the MT5/spindle nose very often.

Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill

I have a machine that utilizes a Erikson QC30 spindle which is front loading.

I just did a search out of curiosity to see if they ever made QC40, and apparently thay do!

http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/part_pics/27680Pics.html

Rotating the collar clockwise using a spanner locks the 40 taper tool holder in place and counterclockwise ejects it. About a quarter turn or less in either direction does it.

NMTB40 tooling fits.

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Glenn

Operating machines is perfectly safe......until you forget how dangerous it really is!

Looks like a neat system. I had seen references to the QC but never saw one with the MT5 taper. I wasn't particularly excited about the FC system since I would be limited to 40 tapers with the FC notch. However, they are available and in just about any configuration as in the standard NMTB 40. If I'm not mistaken, the notched FC will still fit the NMTB spindle in my dividing head.

Intially I was looking for a FC 40 adapter to mount my boring head on. I saw one on ebay and went to the shop to check the back mount thread on the larger of my head. It turns out that it presently has a MT5 mount with the correctly located wedge retention slot and once a recognized how heavy this head is, I changed my mind. I now believe it will be worth while to move this large boring head back to the spindle nose, like the previous owner had intended. No sense having 40# of tool hanging out from the spindle bear bearing any farther than necessary. Not to mention the side thrust as you move the tool farther away from the spindle center.

With the HBM, I have the opportunity to move the work in as close to the mill head and am only limited by the distance the tool extends from the spindle nose. The addition of the Flashchange or any other quick change system is primarily for normal light, light and routine mill operation, where tool changing is frequent between operation. For the heavy going, I will move back to the spindle nose/ MT5 for the largest drill or boring or surface facing operations. All of my largest drill bits are already MT4 or MT5 as they should be. I plan to have MT adapters to the FC up to MT3.

Still need to get some FC to face mill mounts and have a few end mill adapter already.

Just thinking out loud again.

Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill

We made the wedges and needed several for wear on the most used tools. Also we cut the slot in any new holder for the locking wedge. So depending on who made the slot it may have needed a different wedge than we had.



No, don't leave it proud for knocking out. There are times when you need to pull the spindle all the way in and standing pround on the wedge won't let you do that. Remember shortest distance from the spindle equals a more rigid set up and less possiblity of chatter. Also it's a safety issue with it sticking out, all you have to do is forget it standing proud to get hurt. Make a knock out punch of some good material with a nice chamfer on it so it won't mushroom out on you. Then make a spot for it to live when your not using it, so you can find it when you need it.

The last Scharmannn I saw was so big you climbed a ladder and rode the spindle head up and down riding on a platform.

Richard W.

Sound like good advice to me. And drawing the spindle all the way back hadn't occurred to me. Keeping the spindle close to the had ans been one of my concerns as I add the Flashchange setup and the reason I am retaining my MT5 mounts for the largest of my tooling, especially the large boring head.

BTW. I consider my Scharmann "large" my shop of 32' X24' and 12' ceiling. However, I still have to get a ladder to work inside the spindle gear head. I'll sure be glad when I get it all together again. 6.5" years of having a dead machine in taking up that much floor area has been bugging me. Anytime a stranger comes in for the "2 bit tour", I have to explain what "that is" and why is it all torn apart. Then "the long sad story". Soon I hope to show off it's capabilities. Right now, they ask what I do with all of these (old) machine (refer to my signature) and I reply, "Old man (74), using Old machines (some over 100 yrs), to repairing Old machines, Self Perpetuating Hobby!"

That said,
Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill

I just received the first few on my Flashchange tool holder, along with "Master" holder. I am now able to see how the tool notch is engaged to secure the 40 taper tool holders. It is a straight pin, about 1/2" dia. with a notch to allow the taper to pass into the seat and then with a large allen wrench it is rotated to drive the holder into the tapered seat. The locking pin works like the "D" series chuck mounts, but with only one large pin. The mfg has even gone so far as to drill out several holes on the opposite side for balance adjustment.

Now to a problem that I had been weary of. The wedge notch location on the MT5 mount. While researching these tool holes and the MT tapers, I found that some MT tool vendors had specifications for the taper, etc.. But the tool wedge slot was rather arbitrary and the only mill that notch with the buyers specific requirements to match the spindle it will be used in.
Here is my problem with this one. The slot is not only much shorter than my spindle but the tool notch goes beyond the inter end of the spindle notch. Hence, the wedge will not draw the tool into the spindle taper. Additionally, due to it being short the wedge won't contact the outer edges of the spindle slot.

I could send it back because that was an option that I had discussed with the seller, But then I don't know when and if I will ever find another MT5 to Flashchange tool Master.

I'm planning to fit a "slug" and weld that into the inter end of the master MT5 wedge slot and remill that end plus mill the slot longer for the wedge to fit properly.

Otherwise I am happy with this tool system and have just about all the tool holders lined up that I will need.

Thanks for your support and following this saga.

Steve

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Jet vertical Mill, Champion 12X30 lathe, Amer. Mach. Tool radial drill, 24"X60" LeBlond lathe, Scharmann 3" Hrz Brg Mill, Steptoe 18" Shaper, South Bend Shaper, Jet 14" Power Hacksaw, B & S (No.4 36") Gear Cutting Mach., Wm Pilton vert. Slotter, Enco 12" horz. saw, McEnglevan MP36 foundry furnace, Rockwell 14"X42" lathe, K&T 2H univ horz. mill