R8 Integral drill chuck

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RSG
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R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by RSG »

I'm looking for a better drill chuck for my mill and was wondering what would be a good buy for my requirements. Range of hold - 0 - 1/2" in an R8 format. My budget is $300.00 (USD).

I'd appreciate any recommendations

Thanks
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GlennW
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Re: R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by GlennW »

Make him an offer!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ALBRECHT-1- ... SwO~hXHwLn

I use Albrecht's on all of my rotating spindles.
Glenn

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SteveHGraham
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Re: R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by SteveHGraham »

I got my second 1/2" Albrecht at Enco for a hundred and something. Some kind of insane sale. Very nice chucks. Like Swiss watches.

I lost faith in Jacobs, so I tried a 3/4" keyed Golden Goose chuck from Taiwan. It has been great. They're also sold as Vertex chucks. They make keyless, too.

Here is a Golden Goose in very good shape for $36.50. Comes with a "free" Morse taper. Pop that off and shove an R8 adaptor in there.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Golden-Goose-JT ... SwN6JY~YI8

Dang. I want that myself. Not sure if it's ball-bearing, though. Doesn't look like it.

Here's a new Vertex with an integral R8 shank.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-VERTEX-R8-I ... XQWlFRtgYd

This is actually an interesting topic, because many people have had bad experiences with new Jacobs chucks, and new Asian stuff is appearing. Shars has an integrated R8 keyless job for about $90, and they claim 0.002" TIR. Based on my recent Shars experiences, I would be willing to try one of those.

http://www.shars.com/products/toolholdi ... ank-13mm-1

Another company, GS Tooling, makes a chuck that looks just like the Shars chuck, and some guy on another forum claims they're as good as Albrecht.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-Capacity-So ... SwBLlVUiZm
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Harold_V
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Re: R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by Harold_V »

RSG wrote:I'm looking for a better drill chuck for my mill and was wondering what would be a good buy for my requirements. Range of hold - 0 - 1/2" in an R8 format. My budget is $300.00 (USD).

I'd appreciate any recommendations

Thanks
My recommendation is to lose the idea of the R8 format. It makes no sense to have to move the knee or head of a mill to gain enough clearance to remove or insert an R8 shank when you can standardize tooling on a given shank size, then use a short straight shank on the tooling you use.

As an example, I use a 3/4" R8 collet in my BP mill, with which I can grip multiple drill chucks (it's nice to use a smaller chuck when dealing with only small drills), a 3/4" end mill for roughing, or a fly cutter for finishing cuts. I've worked this way since 1967, when I started my humble commercial shop.

Another advantage of the straight shank is that I am able to mount the same tools in the bed turret for my Graziano, so tooling serves more than one purpose.

Harold
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BadDog
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Re: R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by BadDog »

My first drill chuck on my mill was a Rohm keyless, and I foolishly (in hind sight) mounted it on an R8. I've since found a range of Albrechts from 1/2" to 1/4" and have them all on either stubby straight shanks or MT 3 (drills) or MT4 (lathe, or MT3 with MT4 adapter). Much more flexible in use, and doesn't require all that vertical space to swap tooling. For my chucks I use a 1/2 shanks because that's the collet I use most commonly, and drills (that fit in a 1/2" Albrecht) don't really needs a ton of torque or resistance for pulling out. And if I did need to use a big S&D drill, I've got the Rohm still on R8, but that's not good for keyless anyway (they can over tighten). Good to have some keyed chucks around too for use with S&D drills, or with power tapping.
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SteveHGraham
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Re: R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by SteveHGraham »

What's a good length for a stubby straight shank? I should cut mine. I would think you would need very little, based on the short end mills that work in collets.
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BadDog
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Re: R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by BadDog »

Mine use old OEM (US made) Jacobs straight shanks. Don't recall the length, but the Jacobs centers have 2 ground reference surfaces with a relieved section in between. I just cut mine right above the lower precision surface leaving it's full length for the collet to grip on. That surface is maybe 1/2" long ground, with a total out the back of the chuck at 3/4" or so? Enough to grip, but not require any more free height than needed to swap.
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SteveHGraham
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Re: R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by SteveHGraham »

I don't know what brand of shank I have, but it's similar. Two ground portions with a band of crap in between. I don't know why I never got around to fixing it; the process of lifting and lowering the knee to accommodate the long shaft and then move back to other tools is tiresome. Thanks for the tip.
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RSG
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Re: R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by RSG »

Thanks for the info so far.

I didn't know the types of chuck Glenn mentioned were as accurate as they are spec'd to be since they must be mounted to a separate arbour. My Chinese chuck is mounted to an arbour and it has sever run-out so I just assumed all chucks mounted that way were , am I wrong to assume this?

I wouldn't be opposed to doing what Harold mentions if I can find an accurate way to do it.
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SteveHGraham
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Re: R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by SteveHGraham »

I believe you just need a good arbor, a quality chuck, and a very clean spindle.
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pete
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Re: R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by pete »

With tooling on places like Ebay unless you can do a hands on of the item before forking out the cash I'm a bit leery about anything with more than one moving part unless it's brand new. But that's just me.With a good drill chuck has it ever been over tightened, drills and taps spun in it, and all the rest. Yeah some can be very good or it might be a crap shoot. After buying my first new Albrecht that really spoiled me for anything much less. No actual hands on to form an opinion, but going by the number of comments posted about Jacobs current offerings over on PM by daily users who should know what there talking about I've made a point of not buying any new Jacobs. Word is that the new chuck rebuild kits don't properly fit the older models of American made Jacobs chucks either.

Double edged sword with keyless as well. As Badog said the keyless are a bad idea with the S&D type drills. The keyless can self open while reversing with larger taps when power tapping. Or over tighten with large taps the same as when using drills larger than there designed for. With smaller taps my keyless will still work fine. And that's an excellent point about just using a short straight shank and a collet. Since I don't yet have any R8 collets then it either has to fit in the ER-40, the endmill holders, or use an R8 shank. Adding a drill chuck to the endmill holder or collet chuck plus the drill length would be getting towards what a R8 shank and drill chuck would. With R8 collets then yeah the straight shank makes great sense.
But if I want a real accurate hole located the best I can get I use the ER collets to hold drills and a good dro anyway. And if I had to those ER's will take up to 1" shanks that are probably too big for my mill to drive with an R8 spindle. The ER's are a lot slower to use against even a keyed chuck though. But they do hold drills far more rigidly and with better precision than even an Albrecht can.

With offshore built tooling it's an unknown just how good they might be from shipment to shipment. Or if the dealer has even changed manufacturers so take this for what it's worth. Maybe 8? years ago I took a chance and bought 2 R8 and 1 MT 3 integral shank 1/2" capacity keyless chucks from Glacern. At the time they were about 1/3rd what the same in an Albrecht would be. I was more than impressed with the fit & finish and all 3 had right around the same runout that my Albrecht does with roughly .0015" average at 1" out from the jaw tips. My guess is they might not stand up to commercial use quite as long as the Albrecht might, and most likely your not going to find rebuild kits for them anywhere. But I thought they were worth more than what they cost for what I got. There not quite as buttery smooth to operate as an Albrecht, but there pretty close. Who knows how good the Glacern keyless are now though. And maybe I just got lucky. For drills 1/2" and under I do really like that keyless on the lathe. I don't think just one chuck size and type of keyed or keyless can do everything well and fast. For some things you still can't beat a good keyed chuck.

I do have a Rohm 1/2" keyed chuck and from what I've seen out there Rohm seems to have at least 3 tiers of chuck quality. Consumer grade for general around the house that I'm not impressed with but the cheap price reflects what your getting. For all I know Rohm may not even make these chucks themselves but there just roll stamped with the Rohm logo. A step up mid range priced which seems fairly decent. And there top quality that's likely as good as an Albrecht but with a matching price. With a good arbor and chuck there shouldn't ever be any severe runout, but getting that usually cost's some coin.
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Harold_V
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Re: R8 Integral drill chuck

Post by Harold_V »

RSG wrote:My Chinese chuck is mounted to an arbour and it has sever run-out so I just assumed all chucks mounted that way were , am I wrong to assume this?
Indeed you are! I have several Albrecht chucks so mounted and enjoy very acceptable runout.
I'm not keen on bad mouthing things from China, but I have had my share of issues with things sourced there. I would be skeptical that the degree of precision that would be required in this instance would be on par with items made in other parts of the world, where costs are higher, and expectations are upheld closely.
It's not that the Chinese aren't capable, but buyers have created a ready market for compromise quality, so it makes it easy for them to ship less than acceptable quality, and allows them to keep the price low.

Harold
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