Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Discussion on all milling machines vertical & horizontal, including but not limited to Bridgeports, Hardinge, South Bend, Clausing, Van Norman, including imports.

Moderators: GlennW, Harold_V

Trip
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:32 pm

Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by Trip »

Would running a 3/4 straight shank er32 collet chuck in a 3/4 B&S 9 collet have any advantages over just getting a full set of B&S collets ?
Trip
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:32 pm

Re: Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by Trip »

The only other option that is some what readily available is a B&S 9 to MT3 adapter then use a MT3 er32 chuck . The only problem I have with this option is that is that the adapter will extend the chuck out a half an inch or so further then the before mentioned option .
spro
Posts: 8016
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:04 pm
Location: mid atlantic

Re: Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by spro »

The advantage is of course, changing collets. There is a lot of metal with B&S #9 or #10 and they aren't cheap. Everything you already read; more projection, two places where either collet could slip. More ideally would be a collet head on the B&S 9 taper.
Even then, there is projection but what of it? A quill that can drive these , can handle Some "stick out". Not too long ago, maybe 15 years or 20, there were many boring heads and collet heads available which were B&S taper. People tried every which way to remove those shanks, in order to convert them to R-8 or even #40. All the while, there was a machine sitting with #9 or 10 tapered spindle or quill, tightened up. It took massive blows to remove that taper if you don't approach it differently. Extraction. Heck the B&S are threaded inside, so different ways.
Any how, these older machines, heads have slept a long time and newer eyes appreciate in a different way. A tightened collet was not supposed to sit there 20 years. Sure it is a bear to remove but back then, it wasn't.
Well tonight I'll sample steak. I've served up too much bologna :)
pete
Posts: 2518
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:04 am

Re: Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by pete »

Depends on what your using it on. Maybe a dividing head is my guess? If so the B&S no. 9 is getting expensive and hard to find. That's I think the main reason Vertex changed at least there universal DH's over from the no. 9 to an MT 4. There certainly out there as used, but then there's the risk of being how worn. Since I don't own anything with a B & S taper I've never really checked on what's out there. Any such thing as a no. 9 - ER 32? I've heard there's still at least one manufactuer making the no. 9 so it might be out there? If not and you can figure out how to hold and turn it maybe buying a good condition no. 9 shell or end mill holder and use that to bore the ER taper and then thread the end for the metric nut threads might be your best. It would require some careful work, but still doable I think in the average home shop. Adding multiple taper holders almost never works out well with the stack up of runouts each has. It seems to be more luck than anything else when they go the other way and start canceling each other out. If your no. 9 is on a mill or DH it's always best to minimize the overhang as much as possible in my opinion. I don't know about the B & S collets and how adaptable they are, but the ER's work well if you by a good set with guaranteed run out numbers.
Trip
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:32 pm

Re: Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by Trip »

Its for my index 40 mill I probably should have mentioned that . Tolerance stacking is my main concern Im at 2.5" projection from the spindle with the endmill holders I have now with no ill affects . Although less stick out certainly wouldn't be a bad thing . I have narrowed it down to the mt3 chuck with an adapter if it didnt work out I can always use it in the tail stock of my lathe . Or I can bight the bullet and get the B&S 9 collet set for around $175 ouch .
spro
Posts: 8016
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:04 pm
Location: mid atlantic

Re: Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by spro »

Back when Browne & Sharp ruled, there was no ER. There was Universal Engineering and they made the DA type collets in size Z, ZZ (for #10 ) or Y for smaller mills with #9. Even those stuck out further than an actual B&S collet would. There was a window which appears to have been small, where B&S #9, #10 collets were available at a reasonable price. That window had closed due to the economy and general malaise a few years ago.
I think Pete got it right again, in that case, for one of many great dividing heads. With tailstock support and gentle milling, the ER head presents no further projection than the heavier chucks. Probably much more accurate.
Oh heck. I read your reply and much of this doesn't matter. Back later.
pete
Posts: 2518
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:04 am

Re: Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by pete »

ER 32 would put you pretty close to that 2.5" projection as well. I've got about 3.2" for my 40 sized chuck. Depends on how hard you push your mill. R8 spindle collets are always going to be more rigid than my collet chuck. The same would be true for your B & S taper. ER's are probably a bit slower to use. You could use a 3/4" straight shank and the no. 9 collets for drill chucks and boring heads unless you can find direct fitting no. 9's to do the same.At least for the LMS website they only say there precision ground. I couldn't find any specifications on what the maximum allowable runouts are.

Yep I knew the no.9 was invented long before ER's Spro. But at least in my out of date tool catalogs the DA collets seem to be more expensive than most ER's. I've never used them so don't know how well they work though.
Trip
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:32 pm

Re: Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by Trip »

Well I decided to go with the B&S 9 Collet's. It will be more ridged have less of a chance of tolerance stacking problems and gain me a couple of inches on the z axis . Thanks for the input guys you where both very helpful.
pete
Posts: 2518
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:04 am

Re: Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by pete »

From what you've said you've already got at least some no.9 endmill holders. That frees up collets, I've got R8 endmill holders, integral shank drill chucks as well as the ER's. If it were me? I'd be sure to double check those collets when you get them. Yes they should be allright, but one never knows unless you do check. I've been burned a few times and now I check everything. Tooling is never perfect for every single job, so at some point you might end up adding the ER's and a shop made chuck. Even more so if you run across an old dividing head that comes with that no. 9 taper which isn't unusual. Some won't even consider buying one because of that taper. So from what I've seen that tends to drive the prices down. With the range of sizes ER's will do I think they'd make a good addition to something like a DH. And the extra extention out past the DH spindle would likely help most times.
User avatar
Comstock-Friend
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:05 am
Location: Sun Valley, California

Re: Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by Comstock-Friend »

For about $250 Wells Index will grind an R8 into your B&S 9 spindle (plus the freight back and forth). Had that done on my Index 55. Nice thing about it is that it will still hold the B&S 9 tooling as well as the MUCH cheaper R8 stuff. I have three machines with the B&S 9: The Index 55, Diamond B12 horizontal and a Diamond 22M horizontal. So I have acquired a bit of B&S 9 to keep the horizontals going, and occasional use on the Index 55.

John
User avatar
Comstock-Friend
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:05 am
Location: Sun Valley, California

Re: Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by Comstock-Friend »

Here's the contact info for Wells-Index, good folks to deal with.

http://www.wells-index.com/

John
Trip
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:32 pm

Re: Brown & Sharp #9 er32 options ?

Post by Trip »

Got the collet's from lms everything checked out fine. I'm getting under .0005 runout so I'm pretty happy with that . Thanks everyone for the advice.
Post Reply