New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Discussion on all milling machines vertical & horizontal, including but not limited to Bridgeports, Hardinge, South Bend, Clausing, Van Norman, including imports.

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B Mann
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:07 pm
Location: Northern Indiana (Michiana)

New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by B Mann » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:24 pm

Lets start... I like to work with metal and expanding my machine collection. I picked up a heavy 10 South Bend lathe. Now I picked up a Burke Millrite MVN mill. It came with some stuff. It was an estate and the guy who owned it passed away. His son was selling everything and told me to dig through whatever I wanted. I had no idea what would go with it, but took some guesses. Trying to find a site that would not mind some very newbie questions. Where do I start?? Not sure if I should put the pictures in different threads or bunch them together in one thread??

Are these worth using? Are they worth anything. It looks like I have one holder in the center with the broken bit. No holder for the ones on the right. Not sure if the ones on the left fit. Not sure exactly what kind of bits they are.
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rszd 1 bits.JPG

B Mann
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Re: New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by B Mann » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:50 pm

Part 2... What are these??
Attachments
rsz 2 holders.JPG

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Richard_W
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Location: Molalla, Oregon

Re: New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by Richard_W » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:08 pm

B Mann wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:24 pm
Lets start... I like to work with metal and expanding my machine collection. I picked up a heavy 10 South Bend lathe. Now I picked up a Burke Millrite MVN mill. It came with some stuff. It was an estate and the guy who owned it passed away. His son was selling everything and told me to dig through whatever I wanted. I had no idea what would go with it, but took some guesses. Trying to find a site that would not mind some very newbie questions. Where do I start?? Not sure if I should put the pictures in different threads or bunch them together in one thread??

Are these worth using? Are they worth anything. It looks like I have one holder in the center with the broken bit. No holder for the ones on the right. Not sure if the ones on the left fit. Not sure exactly what kind of bits they are.
Looks like eclipse counter bores/spot facers to me. Its been awhile since I have used them. Nice to have if you got a use for them.

Richard W.

pete
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:04 am

Re: New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by pete » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:50 pm

I could be wrong but some of that tooling appears to have some type of quick change system machined and ground into it. What spindle taper does your mill have? If I'm right you'll need the male adapter that fits your mills spindle taper that also has the female socket to hold the quick change tooling. The largest tool roughly in the center of your picture might be it, but it's hard to judge if it has a Morse Taper on the end plus it looks wrong for using a standard drawbar with it.

Forums like this one and Youtube videos are great sources of information but there limited in how much detail they can provide. Plus you still need to know enough to even ask the right questions for anything your unsure of. Without having a mentor the next best is some decent reference books that will drastically shorten the learning curve. Turret Mill Operation by John G. Edwards ISBN 1-56990-273-9 is mostly about using a Bridgeport mill, but vertical milling is about the same for any make of vertical mill. I also think scrolling through the book list here https://www.teepublishing.co.uk/books/in-your-workshop/ and buying as many as you can afford about milling is money more than well spent. Good reference books are tools also and just as important as any other tool or equipment in a home shop. I can guarantee there's no fast, easy and cheap way of learning what you need to educate yourself about. It's a bit expensive at around $50 including shipping from Tee Publishing, but by far the very best reference book I own is The Model Engineers Workshop Manual by George H. Thomas. It not only gives multiple methods for different lathe and milling operations but most times why one method might be chosen over another. If I somehow lost all my reference books it would be the very first one I'd replace. Second would be a used copy of Machinery's Handbook from the 1940's - 1960's. For most people including myself learning how to visualize in 3 dimensions and logically problem solve like real machinist's have to was the hardest thing to learn.

B Mann
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:07 pm
Location: Northern Indiana (Michiana)

Re: New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by B Mann » Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:36 pm

pete wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:50 pm
I could be wrong but some of that tooling appears to have some type of quick change system machined and ground into it. What spindle taper does your mill have? If I'm right you'll need the male adapter that fits your mills spindle taper that also has the female socket to hold the quick change tooling. The largest tool roughly in the center of your picture might be it, but it's hard to judge if it has a Morse Taper on the end plus it looks wrong for using a standard drawbar with it.

Forums like this one and Youtube videos are great sources of information but there limited in how much detail they can provide. Plus you still need to know enough to even ask the right questions for anything your unsure of. Without having a mentor the next best is some decent reference books that will drastically shorten the learning curve. Turret Mill Operation by John G. Edwards ISBN 1-56990-273-9 is mostly about using a Bridgeport mill, but vertical milling is about the same for any make of vertical mill. I also think scrolling through the book list here https://www.teepublishing.co.uk/books/in-your-workshop/ and buying as many as you can afford about milling is money more than well spent. Good reference books are tools also and just as important as any other tool or equipment in a home shop. I can guarantee there's no fast, easy and cheap way of learning what you need to educate yourself about. It's a bit expensive at around $50 including shipping from Tee Publishing, but by far the very best reference book I own is The Model Engineers Workshop Manual by George H. Thomas. It not only gives multiple methods for different lathe and milling operations but most times why one method might be chosen over another. If I somehow lost all my reference books it would be the very first one I'd replace. Second would be a used copy of Machinery's Handbook from the 1940's - 1960's. For most people including myself learning how to visualize in 3 dimensions and logically problem solve like real machinist's have to was the hardest thing to learn.
The top picture in the middle has the holder with the tooling. I was happy to figure it out, until I seen one was broken and 2 of the other bits are to large, then the ones on the left I have no idea. BTW the machine uses R8 collets, I have some (10?)... not sure if I have enough sizes to help me out.

A mentor would be awesome. I think I have the machinery handbook. It came with the lathe. Also another book I will have to check the name. I have a few other books around here, but I am a hands on guy and have a rough time with sitting down with a book, even if I force myself. You tube videos help, but they are usually long winded.

It looks like most of what I have are bits and pieces. I am trying to figure out if most even go to the machine.

I repair a lot of stuff and always have several projects going at once.

Thanks for the help... I will post a few more photos when I get the chance.

pete
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:04 am

Re: New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by pete » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:09 pm

The one rule about machining that needs to always be remembered is that rigidity is everything in the tool holding and part set up. Machine mass would be just about as important. If your spindle is R8 then proper R8 collets will move any cutting tool up and as close as possible to the spindle bearings. That gets you the best rigidity possible. Unnecessary tool extension or a part held out past a firm support leads to chatter with a lathe or mill and that chatter will give poor surface finishes. Chatter also kills cutting edges. Especially with carbide. You can also feed a cutting tool too slow again leading to poor tool life. With some materials like a few grades of stainless that tool rubbing will instantly work harden the material. With steel as an example you need to be taking an actual chip and not dust. Speeds and feeds in that Machinery's Handbook should be studied. But there only starting points or rough guidelines since tool life in an industrial environment is of much less importance than removing as much metal as possible in the shortest time. Dropping the recommended rpm by 10- 20% will give far more than a 10- 20% increase in tool life in trade for slightly longer times to do it.

If it were me I'd probably start by buying a fairly cheap set of off shore end mills since you will crash, break or burn up some just while learning. After that it's worth knowing there's a direct relationship between the performance and durability and what your willing to spend. Buying cutting tools at the lowest possible price is a mistake probably all of us have made. I've yet to find any cutting tool bought at a dirt cheap price that was worth the money spent and I spent too much time and wasted money just learning that. Cheap drills and taps aren't, a high priced OSG tap will seem really cheap the first time you have to scrap a part because the cheap tap was dull and snapped off in the hole. It depends on what your normal or usual projects are if you'd need one or not. Myself I view any mill as being poorly equipped without a boring head. The import copies of the Criterion heads can be made to work, without the ability to resharpen and then hone them on a diamond wheel the 9 pc braised carbide boring bars usually included with them are just about worthless since most are ground without enough clearance to even use them. Finding a good condition used Criterion head on Ebay will cost about the same as one of the new off shore copies. I've used both and the real Criterions are simply 10 times better because there more repeatable. And there's no substitute for high quality industrial grade boring bars to use with it.

Google "Cartesian Coordinates" then read the explanations enough times until you fully understand how and why it's used. That system is the basis for ALL manual and CNC machining done today in the world. To start to use it you need to know exactly where a mills spindle C/L is in relation to the part your machining. To do that a "good" edge finder isn't optional. To get an accurate edge finder that's repeatable requires properly hardening, face grinding and then fine lapping. Without those extremely fine surfaces on the working faces it's impossible for the tool to repeat in a consistent manner. If the tool can't be trusted you have no idea of exactly where the spindle C/L really is. So the cheap ones aren't worth buying. With a mill you'll never be done buying tooling for it. A well equipped lathe might take as much money to tool it as was spent to buy the lathe. It's more than easy to spend 2-3 times or more on tooling than the mill cost and still need even more tooling later. I don't know of any sub $200 mill vices that are worth there cost. Any inaccuracy in your work holding will be directly copied into the part. Likely every person here has at one time or another drilled though a part and into the vise or table or carved an unwanted mark into it. Done more than twice and your not learning what you should have the first time you did it. :mrgreen:

choprboy
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:23 pm

Re: New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by choprboy » Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:14 pm

As noted above, the first picture is of counterbores (along with possibly a couple annual cutters) with a quick change shank (I don't recognize it off hand, still looking).

The second picture looks to be tool holders with either an Automotive Shank (aka Acme Shank) or an AXA Shank. Neither are very commonly found, probably from some sort of specialized grinding/machining equipment.

B Mann
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:07 pm
Location: Northern Indiana (Michiana)

Re: New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by B Mann » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:01 pm

Pete thanks for all the information. It is appreciated. I have been doing repairs for several decades and wanting to step up into the lathe and mill world. I was thinking on starting with some cheap end mills to learn. Like you said, I will probably learn how to break them. Just like when you were a kid and learned how much torque is needed on different size bolts. I have have some cheap tap sets, it was on the list to upgrade to a good set. I know you get what you pay for, but looking for something that would be quality at a fair price. I was looking at Irwin, but have seen quite a few bad reviews.

Normal or usual projects?? Over time I have done a lot. Rebuilt automotive engines, boat engines. I have probably rebuilt ever part on a car or truck, from transmissions to electronics. I am self taught, besides my blue collar job I will try to fix anything I have, to what my friends show up with. Welding to electronics. I live in Indiana, the rust belt, so I have learned to take things apart that are rusted solid. My bench grinders and drill press are my lathe and mill. Time to step up. I had a couple small projects on the lathe before it was completely set up. It sure was a dream instead on spinning parts in your fingers on a bench grinder.

I looked up the Criterion heads, prices are all over the place. I think I will wait on them until I get a better understanding on what I will need/use.

Cartesian Coordinates....Did not know the name Brings me back to school days. I am pretty good with math, algebra and geometry so I do follow it.

<<<With a mill you'll never be done buying tooling for it>> I understand that. I dabble with firearms and know that very well.

As far as a vice. It did come with a large heavy machinist vise. I will have to clean it up and check its quality. For as old as this mill is, it does have a couple marks on the bed. I have made one or two on the drill press. It has been quite a while since I made the last one.

Can you explain what a good edge finder is? I see several and they look cheap. Some electronic, some with a spring, some that are pointed like a center.

Thanks again.

B Mann
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:07 pm
Location: Northern Indiana (Michiana)

Re: New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by B Mann » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:09 pm

I will try another picture... the first in the picture looks like a plumb bob. It has a hole in the end. (for a string?) The ones on the right are different diameters, and they have a dove tail cut in them. The middle one has a set screw.
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resized 3.JPG

B Mann
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Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:07 pm
Location: Northern Indiana (Michiana)

Re: New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by B Mann » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:20 pm

Ok one more for today... The one on the left looks like a spline for a shaft coupler. The right middle maybe a reamer?? Not sure on the 2 on the far right, they are hollow and do not look really strong. Thanks for looking...
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reszd 4 tools.JPG

pete
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Re: New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by pete » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:51 am

Edge finders as you've found come in various types from this https://www.amazon.com/Starrett-Edge-Fi ... B007K35KAU which should be a good one, the ones with a point are mostly for picking up center punch marks or small holes, to the electronic type which won't work on non conductive materials to these, https://www.haimer-usa.com/products/mea ... ensor.html but a Haimer is way out of reach for most due to there price. The Starrett I linked to gets good reviews on the Practical Machinist forums so I'd feel pretty safe buying one of those if brand new. I doubt I'd ever buy a used one since you can't really tell until you have it if it's been crashed or mistreated making it worthless. I started with a cheap one when I was much more stupid and it was wasted money since it couldn't repeat to less than about .003" on it's best day. An indicator can also be used if swung in the spindle, they made what are usually called chair type edge finders for use with a test indicator. Moore Tools to name just one made them. I'm not sure if any still make them though. A good .001" reading dial indicator and maybe even more important a good .0001" dial test indicator should be on your buy as soon as possible tool list. Some swear by them and use a dual indicator tramming tool, I've got spare indicators and all the steel and aluminum to easily build one, but a 10ths indicator will do a whole lot more and be just about as fast. I'm a tool whore and I've not seen the need for one yet. And the $100 they cost is better spent on better tooling anyway. I do have a Haimer digital unit but it was more of a luxury item than absolutely needed. If your working to coordinates on a mill it's pointless to center punch hole locations. Layout marks are a very good idea and will keep you from making miscounts on the dials, adding center punch marks are back yard tractor mechanic wannabe practice. I read about a test performed in a U.K. trade school and trained experienced people using good marking out methods were consistently .005" and up to .030" off the actual required hole location using center punch marks verses coordinate practice of .001" to a maximum of .003" off location. That test was done a lot of years ago and the coordinates were done by the machine dials and no dros used.


This Old Tony on YouTube did an excellent video a few years ago about how to properly check a mill vise and it's well worth searching that one out. Edit, it was easier to find the video than I thought it might be,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5m-kA_Oq_4

Jaw lift even with a very good Kurt vise unless it's been properly adjusted as wear sets in can be a problem with any vise. Older vises can usually be shimmed or re-machined to tighten them up. But it's easy to check for that jaw lift with an indicator to see if yours needs that. A crappy vise that needs the parts hammered down or shimming those parts every time you use it is still better than no vise at all. But that gets old pretty fast.

Taps & dies? At one time you could probably get very good high carbon taps & dies. Today I don't know of any decent manufacturer that still makes very good high carbon threading tools, the good ones are all HSS now. Buying sets of taps and dies might be a waste for the ones you might never use and today few to no decent manufacturers sell them as sets anymore. It's better to buy as you need and pick up the tap and die holders used off Ebay. Starrett and Greenfield made/make excellent quality if you can find them at an ok price. Even a knuckle dragging hammer mechanic would find it tough to ruin a decently made tap or die handle. If there old enough to have color case hardening on the tap or die body it's a sure thing they were very well made.

I think one shell reamer, chucking reamers and that tapered one is called a bridge reamer in your last picture. Plus there's one expansion reamer. Staple this to your forehead,:-) NEVER EVER let hardened cutting tools edges touch each other. That dings those precision sharpened edges. The tools you have are probably dull and dinged up alrady, but it's a good habit to develop and not let them touch each other. Just about as bad is slamming a rusty Morse Taper into a good condition female Morse Taper. Those tapers hold by friction and a wedging action. Gall or tear up that precision ground female taper and it's extremely difficult and very expensive to fix properly. So those tapers should also never touch anything else. Any dings or raised areas on the male tapers have to be lightly stoned off before use or the tool can start to spin in the socket. A mills drawbar helps, but it's far better to not cause the problem in the first place.

The tool beside the plumb bob is I think a boring bar, should be a set screw in the end and a square hole to hold short lengths of HSS to do the boring in a lathe. The other 4 tools I'm not sure about.

choprboy
Posts: 262
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Re: New guy with a new used mill lots of questions.

Post by choprboy » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:21 am

B Mann wrote: I will try another picture... the first in the picture looks like a plumb bob. It has a hole in the end. (for a string?) The ones on the right are different diameters, and they have a dove tail cut in them. The middle one has a set screw.
Yeah, looks like a plumb bob. The middle is possibly a boring bar or an extension bar to hold tool (I made something very similar with a T-handle to hold a tap and thread a hole buried deep behind other stuff.) The others look like tool handles, something like a wrench handle that went perpendicular into a shaft and was secured with a square pin.
B Mann wrote: Ok one more for today... The one on the left looks like a spline for a shaft coupler. The right middle maybe a reamer?? Not sure on the 2 on the far right, they are hollow and do not look really strong. Thanks for looking...
Splined shafting with the ends turned. Morse shank reamer that someone has ground the end out of (possibly removing damage), straight shank reamer, square drive taper reamer (for cleaning holes to take taper pins), another Morse shank reamer, and then a couple square drive adjustable diameter reamers (you turn the screw in/out to adjust the reamer size +/- a few thou).

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