Greetings, forumites. I'm a newcomer to your forum. At the impressionable young age of 50, I'm taking a machine shop class at a local JC in Los Angeles, CA, and enjoy it very much. We're taught on big machines: Bridgeports, Trees, Laguns, Kents, and a CNC Fidal. The class was so much fun, I wanted to do some milling at home...if nothing else, I wanted to make a slotted hole when I need one.
My stall in the garage is already packed to capacity, mostly with woodworking machinery: table saw, bandsaw, jointer, planer, benchtop drill press, sliding table MK diamond tile/stone saw, Coote belt grinder, and Oxy Acet kit. We move every couple of years (restoring houses is a "hobby" of my wife's). So with space AND weight constraints, I did what a lot of people do: I ignored the advice of the wise, and got a small mill, the Sieg X3 from Grizzly (aka the G0463, called a 'Small Mill'), on sale right now for $950. My goals are modest, I don't expect to become a master machinist on this machine. However, I thought I'd chronicle my adventures in this thread for others interested in small mills like this. So I hope to update this thread as I go. Thanks for the great forum!
A Small Mill: My Sieg X3 Saga
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Bolsterman
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A Small Mill: My Sieg X3 Saga
Last edited by Bolsterman on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
A Bona Fide Soggy Bottom Boy
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Copperhead
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Gunbuilder
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Mills
Bolsterman and Copperhead,
The biggest down side I can see with the small mill/drills is they usually are not rigid nor do they have enough power for heavy work. So if you are using small cutters (like 3/8" or less) then you may be able to make do. I bought a Alliant mill this summer, a full sized Bridgeport copy, it is so much nicer than my 3/4 sized Millrite. At times the Millrite would lurch and chip a cutter, I was asking it to do too much. The Alliant hasn't let me down yet, it just cuts what ever I ask it too.
If your mill/drill is as large a machine as you can find a place for, then fine, learn what it can do and work with in the limitations. Even a 15HP mill that weighs 25,000# has limitations.
Have fun,
Paul
The biggest down side I can see with the small mill/drills is they usually are not rigid nor do they have enough power for heavy work. So if you are using small cutters (like 3/8" or less) then you may be able to make do. I bought a Alliant mill this summer, a full sized Bridgeport copy, it is so much nicer than my 3/4 sized Millrite. At times the Millrite would lurch and chip a cutter, I was asking it to do too much. The Alliant hasn't let me down yet, it just cuts what ever I ask it too.
If your mill/drill is as large a machine as you can find a place for, then fine, learn what it can do and work with in the limitations. Even a 15HP mill that weighs 25,000# has limitations.
Have fun,
Paul
"Never lift" - here's a shot of my "2 car" shop with 4.375 cars worth of stuff in it and the attic joists singing "we're not gonna take it". You can see the G0519 (RF-45 clone) next to the big box. I made room LOL. X3 is not a bad little mill, depending on what you're going to do. I bought a mini-mill first - oops.
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Bolsterman
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:36 pm
- Location: Mexifornia
First, a little background about the decision process for this machine. It may be flawed, but here it is. As I mentioned: very little garage space, move often, projects are modest consisting mostly of modifications work: making adaptors and brackets, modifying, adapting, and repairing other tools, milling slots for mounting, and a lot of drilling. I'm hoping to get rid of my lousy benchtop drill press altogether.
Short list was the X3, the SX3 at 350 lbs, and a RF-45 clone at 800-900 lbs. Overwhelming advice from the dozens of machinists I interviewed (yes, literally dozens) was: RF-45 was the best choice for being able to take on major projects and hold tolerances, but all 3 of them were limiting in terms of size. As you can see, I did not do a good job of following their lead. Perhaps I'll be sorry. But the machinists giving me advice had a common perspective: "If it needs machining, I'll do it myself." That's not my perspective. Mine is: "If it needs real machining, I'll either hire a real machinist, or I'll take it into the college and do it myself on a Bridgeport or a Kent. If it's a modification, a slotted hole, a small job, a detail, or a job requiring casual tolerances (which describes about 3/4 of my work) I'll do it myself at home." If and when this mill is too limiting, I'll upgrade to a larger machine. I plan to purchase quality accessories that can work on the next machine. Since it's R-8 spindle, that's doable. I suspect dimensional projects will be mostly aluminum, brick-sized or smaller, and I hope to be able to hold .005. I expect to have to take multiple shallow cuts. If I can do this on a machine that doesn't dominate my garage, I'm happy.
The RF got eliminated early due to weight and size, although it was painful to give it up. It cost the same as an SX3. But its size just wasn't a realistic option for my shop, unless I was willing to give up other tools (which I'm not). I almost got the SX3 but finally settled on the X3 for these reasons: (1) I wanted the additional quill travel (do a lot of drilling); (2) suspect I would seldom use the tilting head; (3) was wary of the additional electronics on the SX3. Reports are they're solid, don't get me wrong; but I was comfortable with a less complex machine. (4) Since I wasn't shooting for an end-all, be-all machine, and since Griz had a sale, I decided to save $450 off the SX3 and put it toward a nice vise or maybe DRO, haven't decided.
OK, so much for background. Onward.
Short list was the X3, the SX3 at 350 lbs, and a RF-45 clone at 800-900 lbs. Overwhelming advice from the dozens of machinists I interviewed (yes, literally dozens) was: RF-45 was the best choice for being able to take on major projects and hold tolerances, but all 3 of them were limiting in terms of size. As you can see, I did not do a good job of following their lead. Perhaps I'll be sorry. But the machinists giving me advice had a common perspective: "If it needs machining, I'll do it myself." That's not my perspective. Mine is: "If it needs real machining, I'll either hire a real machinist, or I'll take it into the college and do it myself on a Bridgeport or a Kent. If it's a modification, a slotted hole, a small job, a detail, or a job requiring casual tolerances (which describes about 3/4 of my work) I'll do it myself at home." If and when this mill is too limiting, I'll upgrade to a larger machine. I plan to purchase quality accessories that can work on the next machine. Since it's R-8 spindle, that's doable. I suspect dimensional projects will be mostly aluminum, brick-sized or smaller, and I hope to be able to hold .005. I expect to have to take multiple shallow cuts. If I can do this on a machine that doesn't dominate my garage, I'm happy.
The RF got eliminated early due to weight and size, although it was painful to give it up. It cost the same as an SX3. But its size just wasn't a realistic option for my shop, unless I was willing to give up other tools (which I'm not). I almost got the SX3 but finally settled on the X3 for these reasons: (1) I wanted the additional quill travel (do a lot of drilling); (2) suspect I would seldom use the tilting head; (3) was wary of the additional electronics on the SX3. Reports are they're solid, don't get me wrong; but I was comfortable with a less complex machine. (4) Since I wasn't shooting for an end-all, be-all machine, and since Griz had a sale, I decided to save $450 off the SX3 and put it toward a nice vise or maybe DRO, haven't decided.
OK, so much for background. Onward.
A Bona Fide Soggy Bottom Boy
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Bolsterman
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:36 pm
- Location: Mexifornia
Picked up at the local FedEx hub after 3 days in transit. There's the box sitting among the forklifts. That was startling...look at the size of that box. I thought this was a SMALL mill...
The forklift made it look easy...now in the pickup...it still doesn't look small...
The mill went from the FedEx hub to the Junior College shop lab, where I'm taking classes. The teacher, EH, is a GREAT guy. From his years in the aerospace industry, he has parts he's made all over the solar system, sitting on various planets, and exiting the solar system! He said I could bring the mill into the lab and "massage" it under the watchful eye of himself and the master of the tool crib, MP. Both these guys have many years of experience, so I'm lucky to have their guidance.
But getting it from the pickup onto the ground was a harrowing experience. Four guys, 3 classmates and myself, and we decided not to lift it down. We slid it down metal ramps. It was spooky because if the ramps scooted with the box, they'd come off the back of the pickup and allow the machine to drop. So one guy paid full attention to making certain the ramps weren't moving. The other three grunted and shoved. An additional unknown was whether the tailgate could support the weight...fortunately it did. I exerted myself enough that I felt a little sick afterwards. Very unpleasant, and in retrospect, dangerous. If I had to do it again I'd spend $200 and hire pro movers to do it; not worth the risk to the legs. As the box would tilt, we'd hear the mill going THUNK against the inside of the box. That wasn't supposed to be happening.
Once down the ramps, tilt, lift, and grunt until it's on a furniture dolly. Now the hard part's done, wheel it into the lab where we break the box open. Felt weak and washed out the rest of the evening. For the record, I'm in good physical shape. I jog and lift weights regularly. Wasn't enough for this, however. Inside the shop, the box almost fell off of its own accord; just staples holding it together.
Aha! One of the two mounting bolts was AWOL. Only one bolt was holding it in place.
A quick search for damage turns up little. The table was hitting the side of the box as you can see...can't see major damage at this point. We'll see if the bed runs true, later.
The forklift made it look easy...now in the pickup...it still doesn't look small...
The mill went from the FedEx hub to the Junior College shop lab, where I'm taking classes. The teacher, EH, is a GREAT guy. From his years in the aerospace industry, he has parts he's made all over the solar system, sitting on various planets, and exiting the solar system! He said I could bring the mill into the lab and "massage" it under the watchful eye of himself and the master of the tool crib, MP. Both these guys have many years of experience, so I'm lucky to have their guidance.
But getting it from the pickup onto the ground was a harrowing experience. Four guys, 3 classmates and myself, and we decided not to lift it down. We slid it down metal ramps. It was spooky because if the ramps scooted with the box, they'd come off the back of the pickup and allow the machine to drop. So one guy paid full attention to making certain the ramps weren't moving. The other three grunted and shoved. An additional unknown was whether the tailgate could support the weight...fortunately it did. I exerted myself enough that I felt a little sick afterwards. Very unpleasant, and in retrospect, dangerous. If I had to do it again I'd spend $200 and hire pro movers to do it; not worth the risk to the legs. As the box would tilt, we'd hear the mill going THUNK against the inside of the box. That wasn't supposed to be happening.
Once down the ramps, tilt, lift, and grunt until it's on a furniture dolly. Now the hard part's done, wheel it into the lab where we break the box open. Felt weak and washed out the rest of the evening. For the record, I'm in good physical shape. I jog and lift weights regularly. Wasn't enough for this, however. Inside the shop, the box almost fell off of its own accord; just staples holding it together.
Aha! One of the two mounting bolts was AWOL. Only one bolt was holding it in place.
A quick search for damage turns up little. The table was hitting the side of the box as you can see...can't see major damage at this point. We'll see if the bed runs true, later.
Last edited by Bolsterman on Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A Bona Fide Soggy Bottom Boy
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Bolsterman
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:36 pm
- Location: Mexifornia
From the floor to a rolling workbench is the next hurtle. This took an overhead gantry, tackle, 3 lifting straps & hardware, and 6 fresh guys (the previous 3 are resting), of which you only see 4 in this photo I took. I forgot to ask for "model releases" so blurred their faces in case they don't want to be recognized.
http://www.cmp-usa.com/interest/x3-06.jpg
(Can't get that pic to display, just click the link.) Up it goes, with everybody crowding around it to keep it in position.
We drilled holes in the rolling worktable and mounted the mill temporarily. Now it can roll in and out of the tool crib to be worked on as I have time. I still have homework to complete for the machine class so my mill has to wait until my lab projects are complete.
So there are a dozen guys checking the machine out, and comments I remember were:
"It's bigger than I expected" (from my teacher EH)
"That's pretty smooth on the Z axis" (from the cribmaster)
"Dang that was heavy" (from my classmates who helped me lift)
"What is all that red gunk all over it, is that rust?" (students looking at the cosmoline).
So that's the project to date. More as it comes.
http://www.cmp-usa.com/interest/x3-06.jpg
(Can't get that pic to display, just click the link.) Up it goes, with everybody crowding around it to keep it in position.
We drilled holes in the rolling worktable and mounted the mill temporarily. Now it can roll in and out of the tool crib to be worked on as I have time. I still have homework to complete for the machine class so my mill has to wait until my lab projects are complete.
So there are a dozen guys checking the machine out, and comments I remember were:
"It's bigger than I expected" (from my teacher EH)
"That's pretty smooth on the Z axis" (from the cribmaster)
"Dang that was heavy" (from my classmates who helped me lift)
"What is all that red gunk all over it, is that rust?" (students looking at the cosmoline).
So that's the project to date. More as it comes.
A Bona Fide Soggy Bottom Boy
Since you move a lot, have you considered getting a cargo container?
They come in several sizes. Hold a lot of weight and have a wood floor with lots of cross ribs under it. You can bolt the machines down and put doors on the cabinets with locks for moving. When it comes time to move either set things on the floor or lock the cabinets. Truck comes in lifts it up drives off to the new house sets it down where you want it. Unlock the door run in the power and you are ready to work.
My container is 60' long with a non standard 9' ceiling (standard is 8') 8' wide. The floors are built to take a big forklife driving on it. Limited to 30 tons inside. I sure I am no where near that yet. I do wish I had got the insulated one though. At the time of purchase I didn't think about keeping the machines from freezing. My container is aluminum with steel supports.
Might be something to consider.
Richard W.
They come in several sizes. Hold a lot of weight and have a wood floor with lots of cross ribs under it. You can bolt the machines down and put doors on the cabinets with locks for moving. When it comes time to move either set things on the floor or lock the cabinets. Truck comes in lifts it up drives off to the new house sets it down where you want it. Unlock the door run in the power and you are ready to work.
My container is 60' long with a non standard 9' ceiling (standard is 8') 8' wide. The floors are built to take a big forklife driving on it. Limited to 30 tons inside. I sure I am no where near that yet. I do wish I had got the insulated one though. At the time of purchase I didn't think about keeping the machines from freezing. My container is aluminum with steel supports.
Might be something to consider.
Richard W.
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tornitore45
- Posts: 2077
- Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:24 am
- Location: USA Texas, Austin
I have an X3 and like it for what it is.
Considering the description of your projects needs I think you will be happy with the choice.
My modifications:
Motorize the Z axis, it gets old in a hurry all that cranking.
Motorized the X axis, just because I can, not a big advantage.
I prefer collets to the Weldon mill holders, however the Weldon put more space between the tool and the big head letting you reach into some tight spot.
Considering the description of your projects needs I think you will be happy with the choice.
My modifications:
Motorize the Z axis, it gets old in a hurry all that cranking.
Motorized the X axis, just because I can, not a big advantage.
I prefer collets to the Weldon mill holders, however the Weldon put more space between the tool and the big head letting you reach into some tight spot.
Mauro Gaetano
in Austin TX
in Austin TX
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Bolsterman
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:36 pm
- Location: Mexifornia
Mauro, how did you motorize the Z axis? You are exactly right, all that cranking is going to get old in a hurry! Where did you buy your motor, etc? (For those unfamiliar with the X3, the Z axis lead screw has a very fine pitch on it. It was a modification the factory made several years ago when they decided to move away from the gas strut support for the head.)
Richard, that's a capital idea if there were room for a container.
Richard, that's a capital idea if there were room for a container.
A Bona Fide Soggy Bottom Boy
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DICKEYBIRD
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:45 am
- Location: Collierville, TN
I've had a G0463 for almost 3 yrs now and have found it to be a reliable, hard working machine. Small? Not to me! It'll move some fairly manly amounts of metal with sharp tooling and the right setups. It wags its head a bit on plunge cuts with large bits but you get used to it. Mine has never missed a beat and I've made some noob mistakes!
The 1st mod I made was to install a counterweight system to eliminate the tiresome cranking. Mine cranks up & down equally as easy now. The weight is a couple auto brake discs and misc scrap bolted together. Some scrap pipe welded together, some wire cable from Home Cheepo and a few pulleys I had lying around and it was good to go. The pulleys were rigged in a compound to reduce the amount of weight needed.
You won't regret buying that mill; it's well worth the money.
The 1st mod I made was to install a counterweight system to eliminate the tiresome cranking. Mine cranks up & down equally as easy now. The weight is a couple auto brake discs and misc scrap bolted together. Some scrap pipe welded together, some wire cable from Home Cheepo and a few pulleys I had lying around and it was good to go. The pulleys were rigged in a compound to reduce the amount of weight needed.
You won't regret buying that mill; it's well worth the money.
Milton in Tennessee
"Accuracy is the sum total of your compensating mistakes."
"Accuracy is the sum total of your compensating mistakes."
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DICKEYBIRD
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:45 am
- Location: Collierville, TN
Oops, almost forgot, get yourself a 23 mm 12 point box-end wrench and use it on the splined end of the spindle shaft to hold when tightening the drawbar. The little pin spanner it comes with will get very tiresome the 1st time you use it.
Feel free to send gifts of libations for that tip.
Feel free to send gifts of libations for that tip.
Milton in Tennessee
"Accuracy is the sum total of your compensating mistakes."
"Accuracy is the sum total of your compensating mistakes."